What does each political group want?

Interesting thread, but as a party member of the Conservative
I often criticise the party and policies just like Labour party members do. It may surprise people but many Conservatives are not wealthy and I came from a Labour voting Liverpool family. I admire many Labourites as long as they are fair. I admire Paul Embury and always liked Michael Foot. Austin Mitchell was a fine Labour MP so I am sure I am like many of you who is not so Party devoted as to think my party is perfect. I voted for Boris, but since his brush with death over Covid, he has been rather disappointing. I am just trying to illustrate that many of us hold differing political principles even If we are party members. I believe in a fair days pay for a fair days work. I was a shop steward for UNISON in my workplace until the SWP made my life a misery. I am in a hurry and writing rather incoherently but I hope you understand where I am coming from.

I would broadly agree with most of your descriptions above, Pippa, but am a bit puzzled by the Lib Dem one. To be honest, I have always been a bit puzzled by what Lib Dem policies actually are - I understood the SDP ones back in the day, although I didn't agree with them, but what is it about the Lib Dems that makes them the party of the community?

Yes, Anniel, I understand your point of view. I didn't realise that there was another page, so missed your post - I wasn't ignoring it.

I feel the same from the other side, I suppose. I am still a Labour Party member, although I am weighing up whether to stay, but I can be critical of their policies as well as Conservative ones (I'm particularly disillusioned with their statements on gender, although I can see that they are as hidebound as everyone else on this). I'm less able to think of a decent Tory MP than you are to find Labour ones, though, as I find pretty much all of their policies objectionable - or maybe I'm just less tolerant?. With hindsight maybe John Major wasn't so bad, and some of the really old guard (eg Kenneth Clarke) seem decent by comparison with today's lot, but then I remember how strongly I disliked them when they were in power, so I don't know.

Anyway. I don't think that supporting a party necessarily means that you have to buy the whole package. As I've said, I think that what it means to be Labour, Tory or whatever is a moveable state anyway.

Doodledog

I would broadly agree with most of your descriptions above, Pippa, but am a bit puzzled by the Lib Dem one. To be honest, I have always been a bit puzzled by what Lib Dem policies actually are - I understood the SDP ones back in the day, although I didn't agree with them, but what is it about the Lib Dems that makes them the party of the community?

I don't know that they are Doddledog. I was trying to make sure that I put a serving suggestion in for each party - it was meant as an example. They do build well from the community up.

Anniel, I suppose I set out the OP, aiming at non aligned voters rather than party members. You may be able, as a party member, to give us a few words the would finish "the Labour Party believes ..." (It's putting it very briefly that is difficult).

PippaZ

Can you find any words that each political party would say fits their offering though Dinahmo?

Conservative=selfish, self serving,greedy ,ex Eton cliquers.
Labour=nationalists, equal dibs for all, helps the weak in society
Liberal=kind, well meaning, never going to win
Greens= great ethos, amiable,la-la-landers!
Socialists=greedy as capitalists but hide behind red flag, everyone is equal but some more equal than others ( hmm...have I seen that somewhere before?....)

That isn't helpful Gabrielle56. We are trying to find the words the party would use to describe what it stands for.

Here are the basic principles of the Liberal Democrats set out in the preamble to the party's constitution.

www.libdems.org.uk/constitution

I just started reading it varian and the first thing it says is that the LDs exist to build a "fair, free and open society". In a way, those are the kind of statements that don't help. I expect each party would say that. So I wonder if we are looking for the "how" of each party, rather than the "why"?

I'll go back and read past the first sentence varian and look for "hows". Thank you for posting it. I'm sure it will help.

I landed on the beard in left wing libertarian. Glad I didn't land on authoritarian as I share my birthday with Chairman Mao and always veared to marxist feminist in my youth.

The lib dems historically I was brought up to hate them as they split the LP - or did they show cracks In the LP.

I will never vote Lib Dem because of this.

I think they are wishy washy anyway.

Anniel I loved your post. We were brought up to believe there is nothing worse than a working class Tory (like Norman Tebbit who got on his bike). Then you think the likes of Ken Clarke have been decent politicians. I even agree with Lord Archer these days!

I was expelled from the Labour Party in 1987 for being a member of Militant I wasn't old enough to vote. But I can understand how Anniel was hounded.
I don't think Momentum were as harsh as the SWP or Militant were in the 80s.

I feel and will be shouted down that JC should have won in 2019 but people are scared of what he would have unleashed.

According to political scientists, new "cleavages" (ie divisions) are forming in most western democracies around education, age, geography, and attitudes to immigration - not just economics and class, as in the past. In a FPTP system, it's difficult to bundle together values which will appeal to diverse groups, as Labour is discovering the hard way.

In 1987 while at school we paralled the election and had to campaign on national policies. I was Labour. The Lib Dem leader said he was going to get the school a tuck shop. That was that he won! It didn't happen. That was so like 2010! And that is my opinion of the Lib Dems. I do not think it is useful to this thread.

That makes sense of what we are experiencing Growstuff. Right-wing/Authoritarian seems to be a threat to those who believe in democracy. But then democracy, to me, should be left and reasonably libertarian; some would see that as a threat to democracy. And there's the problem.

In Texas, it seems democracy is introducing a version of the Stasi. I cannot see that as democratic; presumably, they do.

Whatdayisit, interesting though your posts are you seem to be taking us a long way from the OP.

If you stood for Labour at school how did you say Labour would achieve their goals?

But the left behave in an authoritarian way sometimes. So paid surrogacy in America in my view shows as much disregard for the rights of women and children, and that would be supported by many on the 'left'.

They are all a waste of space and liars.
Not worth a comment!

Pippa Is there a typo in "democracy, to me, should be left and reasonably libertarian; some would see that as a threat to democracy." Sorry, but I can't make sense of it.

I can't see one growstuff. Perhaps, if I had put But then democracy, to me, should be left and reasonably libertarian; whereas some would see that as a threat to democracy. it would make more sense.

I was really just saying that one persons threat to democracy is another persons view of democracy.

Elvis58

They are all a waste of space and liars.
Not worth a comment!

So why try and spoil the conversation?

I don't think that either "right wing" nor "authoritarian" are very useful terms to describe what's currently happening in the UK (and other countries).

I don't think either Labour or Conservatives have a consistent ideology and I don't think the majority of voters care about the big ideals. The UK is in a mess and has been for some time. It's adjusting from being a Great Power and people are scrabbling to hang on to their share of what's left. Their voting preferences are dictated by their own needs and political parties need to market themselves to attract voters. Labour under Corbyn did have an ideology, but failed because it didn't appeal to enough people. JMO

PippaZ

I can't see one growstuff. Perhaps, if I had put But then democracy, to me, should be left and reasonably libertarian; whereas some would see that as a threat to democracy. it would make more sense.

I was really just saying that one persons threat to democracy is another persons view of democracy.

OK! We could have a discussion of what people understand by democracy. IMO it's misunderstood and misused. There are loads of different definitions, but it's become a sacred concept which savvy politicians and manipulators use. In a true democracy, there would have to be a plebiscite on every single issue, but that's not realistic, so political parties bundle together a variety of issues. People then choose a party without necessarily agreeing with everything they do.

Elvis58

They are all a waste of space and liars.
Not worth a comment!

So why comment?

I think though that you are conflating "what a political ideology wants" with "how they say they plan to get it"

Mmm. I did ask earlier if that's what we should be concentrating on greenlady102. More than anything I wanted to work out what the parties are offering, but "and how they propose to get it" may show the difference in them more clearly.

They are not inclined to commit but they obviously differ. It shouldn't be this difficult to decribe on what and how they differ to the "stranger in a strange land" without picking a side.

growstuff Thu 02-Sep-21 10:59:53. I think that would be another thread. It's so big it deserves one of its own.

PippaZ

Mmm. I did ask earlier if that's what we should be concentrating on greenlady102. More than anything I wanted to work out what the parties are offering, but "and how they propose to get it" may show the difference in them more clearly.

They are not inclined to commit but they obviously differ. It shouldn't be this difficult to decribe on what and how they differ to the "stranger in a strange land" without picking a side.

But it is difficult. Apart from "getting Brexit done", I can't remember that much about the Conservatives' manifesto. They've already shown themselves willing to break pledges (eg pension triple lock) anyway. Tuition fees broke the LibDems, so why don't people care about the Conservatives keeping promises?

I don't think the people in "red wall" Conservative seats are interpreting Conservative policies (if there are any) in the same way as voters in leafy shire constituencies.