Julie Bindel, new book - feminism for women, the route to freedom. Interviewed by Emma Barnett on women’s hour today

That makes far more sense Doodledog I was beginning to think universities must have mutated into little more than adult nurseries.

trisher again I say I'm astounded that they manage to have any speakers at all, since I would think there will always be someone who will find the proposed speaker's take on any subject distasteful and/or threatening, unless it is so anodyne as to be of zero interest to anybody.

Rosie51

I am absolutely astounded that they can ever have any speakers if Anyone who is seen as promoting views which might be found distateful or threatening by members of the university for any reason is routinely prevented from speaking, . A person who finds the denial of biological sex distasteful and the consequences of gender neutral facilities threatening would be able to object and this would be grounds to prevent a speaker who espoused these views from speaking?

It doesn't work like that, Rosie.

It would be impossible to run a university like that and still offer courses in pretty much any subject. There is always somebody who will object to anything, and they can't be indulged.

What does tend to happen is that there are 'trigger warnings' so that those who might take offence at something can leave the room before hearing it.

Just as if you invited someone who was a holocaust denier a Jewish person could object, or a speaker from an anti aboortion group a woman could object Rosie51 It protects everyone not just one section of people.

Which basic rules do you mean?

In the universities where I have worked there is a very clear demarcation between under and over 18s, and the latter are subject to the same duty of care as any other adults. University staff are very much not in loco parentis.

Without knowing which 'basic rules' you mean it's difficult to be sure, but Here is the safeguarding section of one university's policies and procedures document. The relevant bit would be on the fourth page, but I can't see anything there about a responsibility of the university to prevent 'distasteful' speeches.

I am absolutely astounded that they can ever have any speakers if Anyone who is seen as promoting views which might be found distateful or threatening by members of the university for any reason is routinely prevented from speaking, . A person who finds the denial of biological sex distasteful and the consequences of gender neutral facilities threatening would be able to object and this would be grounds to prevent a speaker who espoused these views from speaking?

Just read the rules and procedures of most universities I didn't make them. They are there to protect students perhaps because those dealing with them are wise enough to know that at 18 you don't somehow get awarded the ability to cope succesfully with life, and a lot of young people leaving home and living independently for the first time, need help and support to do so, and piling on pressure by allowing them to be subjected to abuse and hate speech isn't helpful.

FarNorth it isn't "coddling" to respect the rights of individuals and ensure they feel safe. Anyone who is seen as promoting views which might be found distateful or threatening by members of the university for any reason is routinely prevented from speaking, because the university owes a duty of care to its more vulnerable students. It is written into most University basic rules.

FarNorth

^Most places free speech is fine, in places of education, like universities, where some people may be more vulnerable, a duty of care means some speakers should not be welcomed.^

People in universities are adults.
How can they consider different viewpoints if they are not allowed to hear them?
How can they cope with the big wide world if they have been so coddled?

Absolutely!

I really don't like the way debate is stifled as is happening now, supposedly to protect the 'vulnerable'.

What makes you think that the vulnerable (however they are defined) are more prevalent in universities than elsewhere, and why do you think that might be?

FarNorth

^Most places free speech is fine, in places of education, like universities, where some people may be more vulnerable, a duty of care means some speakers should not be welcomed.^

People in universities are adults.
How can they consider different viewpoints if they are not allowed to hear them?
How can they cope with the big wide world if they have been so coddled?

Amazing isn't it? Aren't university students almost exclusively 18 and older? So old enough to marry without parental consent (I do know this is 16 in Scotland), buy and drink alcohol, buy and smoke cigarettes, enter into legal contracts, have sex reassignment surgery, take opposite sex hormones, serve on a jury and be able to consider evidence in an impartial way and come up with a judgement on another human being, stand for election as an MP, and that's just for starters. But hey, imagine having to hear an opinion that you find goes against your own belief system, scarred for life I tell you!

Most places free speech is fine, in places of education, like universities, where some people may be more vulnerable, a duty of care means some speakers should not be welcomed.

People in universities are adults.
How can they consider different viewpoints if they are not allowed to hear them?
How can they cope with the big wide world if they have been so coddled?

Its Andrew Doyle doodledog so obviously one step removed from Satan.

Galaxy that sounds very interesting. Is it available to listen to?

The differences in treatment by the legal system between a woman who killed a man who was trying to strangle her, and the man who absentmindedly strangled a woman to death during sex were absolutely dreadful. I applaud Julie Bindel for fighting against this sort of injustice.

I think I've lost the thread of this conversation.

Trisher said that it would be bullying someone to speak about sex being immutable, as that would deny the existence of transpeople, and I asked whether that would also apply to someone saying that being female is open to anyone, as that would equally deny the existence of woman as a sex, rather than a gender.

Far North then asked about pronouns, and suddenly the posts are about universities and bullies, and I've lost the plot ?.

That interview sounds interesting, Galaxy. Where can I find it, please?

If have just been listening to an interview with Bindel (not the WH one) and I thought I knew about her work but I learnt a lot. She was very involved in breaking the issue of the grooming gangs, and talked about the dangers of the more liberal press ignoring the subject which then left it wide open to the bigots and the likes of the BNP. She also once went undercover as a journalist to a gay conversion therapy centre in the states, she talks very movingly about how much that affected her. She also talks a lot about her Male allies in terms of the fight against Male violence.

Who are these mysterious "bullies" FarNorth? Anyone can contact people and complain. No one should be subjected to any bullying but nor on the other hand should people be prevented from expressing their views. You can't support people who question transgenderism being able to speak out and then say no one should criticise a transwoman's views simply because those views in some way tally with yours. Either people are free to speak out or they' should be censored and no platformed if they harm others whatever their opinion. I know where I stand on this. Most places free speech is fine, in places of education, like universities, where some people may be more vulnerable, a duty of care means some speakers should not be welcomed.

It's my view that young people in universities, along with everyone else, are being bullied to go along with absolute nonsense.

Here is an extract from the article by transwoman Debbie Hayton, posted earlier in this thread :

"My transgender identity has not protected me from this censorship regime, and I have been excluded and shamed for my political statements (as I regard them). Both my employer and my professional associations have been contacted by activists who claim that my political views should disqualify me from being able to work with children (I’m a teacher), or represent my colleagues. An email campaign targeting my school purported to express “deep concern about Debbie Hayton’s continual harassment and bigotry towards transgender females on Twitter. She provokes anti-trans feelings and mis-represents the trans community. She has sided with several pseudo-feminist and anti-trans groups.”"

Is DH the wrong kind of transwoman?

You then asked me a question about someone "bullying " you FarNorth as I had already said in most circumstances and public events I would support free speech I don't understand why you would be bullied. It was as usual just an attempt to derail the discussion into a personal and rather hackneyed argument which seems to be the basis of most of the things posted on these threads, that somehow a few transpeople and in particular transwomen, are undermining the fabric of feminism. It's an argument I don't understand and it wasn't anything to do with deplatforming really was it?

I quoted what you said in another post trisher.
Why don't you read it?

I am glad to hear a man say he supports feminism, but to hear a man say he is a feminist is naff

trisher

^It seems patronising to suggest the prevention of free speech comes from a good place, eg to prevent bullying.^
But that is exactly where it does come from Iam64 it comes from concerns that there may be people in the university who have endured abuse and found their gender problems difficult to deal with, and that someone speaking who denies their existence, or questions their rights, will cause them more pain. It's something which has been used for other types of hate speech, stopping people speaking who might have made students of certain religious faiths or racial origins feel uncomfortable.
In the broader spectrum of things I would say no one should be no platformed and public events shouldn't be cancelled but universities and other places of education offer safe spaces where difference is protected. If someone proposes to speak and advocate that difference is questionable they shouldn't be surprised when they are told they aren't welcome.

Perhaps you should read my posts before commenting FarNorth and Doodledog I've quoted it so you understand what I actually said.

trisher

FarNorth Are you at university? Well done!

However you win the booby prize for bringing toilets into the debate.

Have some posts been deleted?

What has whether FarNorth is at university got to do with anything?

I also didn't know that toilets are a forbidden topic. Silly me again

Correction :

Argue for mixed-sex prisons or mixed-sex anything, if you like - biological sex still exists.

I didn't realise you were talking only about people at university, trisher. Silly me.

Correction :

So if someone insists that a student should use 'she' for certain male people, if that student does not want to do so, they are bullying the student?

Question :

Why is it different for those at university, from those not at university?