AUKUS

I'm really amazed how many of my fellow GNers are experts in international relations, foreign policy and defence strategy. And how I've missed the fact that other countries are all out to get us and how we're a towering presence in the world, that everyone else is jealous of.

Makes me feel I've wasted my life.

I have had a bad cold recently and haven't been able to sleep, so l switched on the World service. Tucked away at about 3.00 am l heard the real reason why the Australians switched to the US and Britain for the subs. They were promised for completion in 2024,then the French said they couldn't complete until 2035,they doubled the cost and on top of that the firm involved was hacked and all their secrets stolen. The Australians pulled the plug shortly afterwards. One benefit to having a sleepless night !

leeds22

Haven’t had time to read all the comments but I understood this deal to be providing nuclear powered subs which will be armed with conventional weapons, not nuclear warheads.

I’m unhappy about not keeping France informed, particularly as US has hardly shown itself to be a reliable ally, even while the AUKUS treaty was being set up.

The difficulty is that the agreement between Australia and France has been struggling for some time. During that time, China has been strengthening its coercive powers. As well as Beijing reversing back to totalitarian mode, it has been stirring up territorial disputes in the South China Sea claiming parts of the sea as its own by building islands. We have also seen the suppression of expression and free assembly in Singapore.

During this time, Trump's abusive attitude to previous allies encouraged the Australian government to look elsewhere. It showed interest in Asian powers such as the other Quad members India and Japan, and, as we know, with France.

The change came with Biden entering the White House. I can imagine there was a sigh of relief in Canberra. Both Biden and Johnson have been wary of the rise of China's powers. This triumvirate can also offer technological cooperation leading to nuclear-powered submarines. This technology is so far ahead of the French offering that the Australians had little choice but to back out of the original deal.

There are many ways in which these three countries can sell a growing security partnership to their countries. However, if they are to build on this the partnership will be based on trust. My worry would be that the weakest link in that trust will be our current Prime Minister.

I have never bothered to learn the American language and really do not wish to do so. They are Americans after all.

The French are going to be peeved for missing out on all the millions/ billions it needs now Britain are not propping up their economy by not being in the EU. They would not be worried a jot if they had done exactly the same to Britain or America. It seems to be the French way or no way, look at Barnier not so keen now to be involved in the EU.

We're not proliferating nuclear weapons, the subs are nuclear powered and will carry non nuclear weapons.

Nuclear Power Stations are not the answer, either, this planet is too small to deal with the toxic waste, which will just keep building up. Best way to deal with China is to stop buying their goods, that includes their investments in Nuclear Power Stations. We got to cut consumption as it is. And trade with our neighbours, not import stuff from half a world away.

Haven’t had time to read all the comments but I understood this deal to be providing nuclear powered subs which will be armed with conventional weapons, not nuclear warheads.

I’m unhappy about not keeping France informed, particularly as US has hardly shown itself to be a reliable ally, even while the AUKUS treaty was being set up.

helgawills

Nuclear Weapons are NOT the answer to anything, might just as soon blow us all up now, rather than next year.

Some confusion here - a nuclear submarine is not a weapon, it is nuclear powered.

Like a nuclear power station producing power.
Australia doesn't have nuclear power stations either.

Think it will not make the world a safer place. Don't want to toady up to the US and we should be very careful to maintain a good relationship with our close neighbours.

Nuclear Weapons are NOT the answer to anything, might just as soon blow us all up now, rather than next year.

No fireworks

Well, that's a relief halfpint!!
?

Perhaps someone can tell us what the Aussies will do if and when China "spreads its venom to far into the Pacific"?

I'm not that well informed but wonder if these big powers are thinking ahead and may be preparing for a future made less certain by climate disintegration and the threat to huge swathes of land that is likely to bring. I'd think all-out war is less advantageous than the ability to resettle people from land that's no longer habitable due to flood, drought etc. After watching a BBC doc on drought in Nigeria it's clear that western countries are doing too little to reduce emissions and offer help those in places where the population have contributed very little to the disaster of climate change. I feel we are on the brink of disaster and the alliances only set people against each other when we should be working as a united world to keep this planet habiltable for all.

Ali08

Oh god, stop the planet I want to get off!!
As if the UK hasn't got enough flaming names - UK, GB, England, Britain - for it's tiny size!

Just thought I'd point out.... England doesn't mean the same as any of those other things.

Carry on.

The headlines in the U.K. press this weekend did make me laugh a little.
No fireworks , no food on the shelves, no xmas , no meat
but a big new order to build submarines, so hows that going to happen if the other things aren't?

Oh god, stop the planet I want to get off!!
As if the UK hasn't got enough flaming names - UK, GB, England, Britain - for it's tiny size!

Biden appears so doddery I'm surprised he can remember being president. When will we stop letting old white geezers from another century and a half ago decide the futures of the world's upcoming generations? Very few younger sharp minded women or men are likely to make it to be world leaders(unless they're of the Putin ilk who simply bumps opposition off!) Who cares if France is "upset" they don't care upsetting us by allowing all the knackered old boats full of refugees set sail from their rubbish strewn shores, do they? Who's breaking the maritime law there then!? We should snipe back at their nasty lies as quickly as they do , were far too soft ( "it's not cricket old boy"- belongs to another life) we need leaders who are prepared to be strong and sweep away these annoying little gnats. Australia needs to be able to have subs of extended dive capabilities to ensure China is not spreading its venom too far in Pacific, they're right on front line and we can do a deal with whoever we so choose now, maybe the French failed to grasp that?

Macron has no love for the British and will say any old thing.
He will be seething that we are part of something like this, when he wanted us to do badly after we left the EU.
There will be a lot that we don’t know about the contract between France and Australia, and all the why’s and wherefore’s.
Macron was hoping for a wonderful bromance with Biden....how soon that ended.

Urmstongran

Maybe the French ambassador hasn’t been withdrawn because of our military support for France in Mali?

The operation would collapse without our Forces there so maybe they are trying to not upset Boris too much?

The French are pulling out of Mali, announced it several weeks ago.

So on balance, I'm going with the idea that they think we are bit players in the new deal, not worth bothering about.

Urmstongran

Maybe the French ambassador hasn’t been withdrawn because of our military support for France in Mali?

The operation would collapse without our Forces there so maybe they are trying to not upset Boris too much?

Yes maybe.

But I am inclined to accept the previous French Ambassador’s explanation tbh.

Callistemon

I can understand also why the Australians may have got very frustrated and fed up but should have been up-front about what their intentions were.

I’m hoping the next election might see this shower out on their ear. Not keen on the opposition,either, but anything is better than what we have. I feel embarrassed to be Australian just now.

Maybe the French ambassador hasn’t been withdrawn because of our military support for France in Mali?

The operation would collapse without our Forces there so maybe they are trying to not upset Boris too much?

Apparently the French are as we know furious at what has taken place and have withdrawn diplomats from Australia and the USA.

Asked why they hadn’t withdrawn diplomats from the U.K. they replied that the U.K. “is a 5th wheel in this”

In other words - superfluous.

From my point of view why are we apparently ensuring greater security in the Far East whilst our security in Europe is under threat from our behaviour towards Europe and the knock-on effect towards NATO.

God will Johnson ever get anything right?

Alegrias1

PippaZ

Not fancy, Alegrais. Just that a third of us are Australian, a third British and the other third American. Some have duel nationality. It felt really nice that our wide flung family group now had a name Heaven knows where the GCs will end up.

Re HMS Vigil - worrying thought.

Sorry, I wasn't getting at you PippaZ, sorry if it came over that way. It was the description of the technologies I was getting at.

I didn't think you were getting at me Alegrais. We really do miss the body language on here don't we.