Biological men in woman only spaces

lemongrove

The leader of the Lib Dems was on radio 4 this morning and thinks that there should be no safe spaces just for women (biological females) so there you have it, don’t vote for them.

Did anyone hear the Scottish Lib Dem politician on woman’s hour ?? Dreadful. I Was driving and yelling at the radio. She didn’t answer a question she didn’t appear to know some basic facts, waffle waffle

Do what?

The exclusions are included in the Equality Act Pippa.

Mollygo

varian

I have never wanted to undress in public and so if I go to the swimming pool I shower wearing my costume. If there are no cubicles to change in I change in the loo. Transwomen could do the same to avoid revealing anything most women don't have.

Transwomen could indeed. Those who do avoid revealing their body parts by doing what you suggest probably go unnoticed and have done for a while.
Why do those who flaunt their male attributes and appendages in female only spaces do that if they want to be seen as female?
And in response to the endless cry from some posters of, “it’s only a small number”, the fact is that if one transwoman behaves in a certain way in a female only place knowing it is upsetting for females then not only is that one too many, but also that one transwoman is doing more harm to the trans cause than anyone else.

So when, where and which person did this?

Because people are saying that transwomen need to be in womens spaces to be safe. That implies that Male spaces are dangerous. But when we point that out as one of the reasons for sex segregation we are then told we are calling men predators. It cant be both Pippa.
It's also to do with saying any sex can be a predator, and yes of course they can, but men and women commit crimes in very different ways. We cant pretend that's not a reality.

Galaxy

Or ensure the law which allows for the exclusion of men in certain spaces is followed. Women aren't consenting violet that's the point.

Which law is that Galaxy and could you quote what it says about the "exclusion on men in certain spaces", please.

Galaxy

No....

We can have both, that's the point.

Trans women have nowhere to use certain facilities so obviously that is descrimination.

The sports issue aside (very problematic and not really qualified to have an opinion there)

The other issues are very resolvable and everyone can be accommodated.

I don't know if, we could come together and find solutions that everyone was comfortable with, without excluding trans women from either facilities or discussion, it would help...

But history has taught me that while we are all busy arguing someone else makes those decisions for all of us which leaves some of us unhappy

I don't know about you but the only thing I ever do in public, in a public loo, is wash my hands. In many of the new ones even that isn't necessary. What is it that some of you have needed to do, in a public loo, since 2010, that you can't? Trans people have been allowed to use gender-separated spaces that align with their identity since then. They have been doing just that across the UK without being noticed as far as I can gather.

If the Sunday Times hadn't written an article which stirred up the whole "toilet wars" idea they would have gone on quietly about their lives. The ST wrote the article in 2018 - eight years after the law was past but had to withdraw it and print an apology because it was a lie.

They succeeded in stirring up the culture wars though didn't they and the lies and obfuscations that go with that.

It might be good if we could actually pin down what is meant by self ID. Most transpeople just want a simplified legal process which doesn't involve a medical input, is reasonably priced and easy to use. For some reason self ID has been written about as if it was something people could do on a whim. Now whilst there may be a few people who would like that it isn't the view most transpeople hold.

Galaxy

No in specific cases such as refuges, prisons etc it is sex which is the factor not gender. It is all detailed in the equality act.
Why would transwomen be any safer in womens facilities, after all as you and other posters are asserting (against all statistical evidence) any sex is dangerous, imagine suggesting that our brothers, husbands might hurt transwomen.

Could you quote the words you are attributing to other posters. I think you are misleading other by posting less than truthful twist to what has been said. I am happy to be shown I am wrong but this is no way to conduct a discussion if that is what you are doing.

I think it depends on how you view single sex spaces violet. So I view them as a layer of safeguarding and also a means of providing privacy and dignity. From what you are saying I think you see single sex spaces as discrimination. My husband, brothers, sons dont feel discriminated against because they cant go in female spaces. They understand womens boundaries. They dont think they are being called predators, in the same way I dont think I am being called a predator when I am asked to do approximately 10 DBS checks per year to do my job. I understand that even though I am not a predator there have to be safeguards in place because dangerous people tend not to announce the fact that they are dangerous.

varian

I have never wanted to undress in public and so if I go to the swimming pool I shower wearing my costume. If there are no cubicles to change in I change in the loo. Transwomen could do the same to avoid revealing anything most women don't have.

Transwomen could indeed. Those who do avoid revealing their body parts by doing what you suggest probably go unnoticed and have done for a while.
Why do those who flaunt their male attributes and appendages in female only spaces do that if they want to be seen as female?
And in response to the endless cry from some posters of, “it’s only a small number”, the fact is that if one transwoman behaves in a certain way in a female only place knowing it is upsetting for females then not only is that one too many, but also that one transwoman is doing more harm to the trans cause than anyone else.

No I did not suggest that at all.

Also I stated that two women in my life are guilty of abuse and got away with it.

I don't feel comfortble getting changed in front of anyone as a result but there are easy ways around that.

The thing is that I think these discussions are important but when they become arguments where we are not hearing each other it is pointless.

Everyone should be able to live their authentic lives, feel safe and not face descrimunation. That includes everyone commenting here.

I've never said any differently

Which laws did you mean?

Laws are rarely fuzzy. They are written so that it is clear when they have been broken.

No in specific cases such as refuges, prisons etc it is sex which is the factor not gender. It is all detailed in the equality act.
Why would transwomen be any safer in womens facilities, after all as you and other posters are asserting (against all statistical evidence) any sex is dangerous, imagine suggesting that our brothers, husbands might hurt transwomen.

Is the law differentiating between gender and sex in all cases?

Or is it all a bit fuzzy because trans women also need to be kept safe, to try on new clothes and somewhere they can go for a wee as basic human rights

I am not sure what gender has to do with it violet. Single sex spaces are segregated by sex and are protected within the equality act. The right to exclude men from some spaces is enshrined in law. And vice versa where necessary.

Is it not the law that is allowing people to change gender Galaxy and isn't it also law that we should not descriminate?

Or ensure the law which allows for the exclusion of men in certain spaces is followed. Women aren't consenting violet that's the point.

Maybe I am misunderstanding the problem.

Just lobby for individual changing/toileting and ensure that prisons/women's shelters either have seperate secure rooms or informed consent is given if they are shared?

It’s like knitting fog, isn’t it?

There is no link between wanting the ‘business as usual’ aspects of female changing rooms, hospital wards and prison cells and serfdom or criminalisation of gay men. Creating those links does nothing to help a discussion about safe spaces, as they are entirely false equivalences.

Violet, you are right that many people don’t realise that their loved ones are predators, but again, that’s irrelevant. What people are asking for is not to have to undress in front of men unless we want to. If we don’t know they are there, we can’t give informed consent.

Asking for single sex spaces won’t impact on our sons unless they want to access them, which the vast majority of them won’t, surely?

Good comments Rosie

Message deleted by Gransnet. We've removed this as it quotes a previously deleted post.

VioletSky

Rosie51 I'm sorry but everyone thinks their husbands, brothers and sons are safe, including those related to predators.

It would still be wrong to treat them all that way and it is wrong to treat trans women like they could all be possible predators.

That's why the solution is to find a safe way to be inclusive. Not a transphobic way where trans women have nowhere to go or to ahem go.

???? I'm sorry but everyone thinks their husbands, brothers and sons are safe, including those related to predators. Wasn't that essentially the point I made? You said This would be like being afraid of our own sons and treating them like they could attack someone at any moment. and I explained why it really isn't. And for the billionth time, nobody is saying transwomen are all predators, merely that the proposed self ID will make it easier for men to self ID as transwomen in order to have easy access to victims. There are certain situations male bodied people, no matter how they identify, should be excluded from. For example I have had an intimate physical examination by a male medic, the difference was I knew it was a male and gave informed consent. If however I had been raped I can imagine I would want a female medic. Someone who identified as a woman, despite having an intact male body, would not be suitable, and I would not be giving informed consent.

My last post replied to Doodledog Mon 20-Sep-21 15:36:49