Biological men in woman only spaces

trisher

I wonder how is it gaslighting if the person was in the process of transitioning?

Perhaps you can explain the change that happens to a male penis when its owner transitions but is going to keep their penis as the vast majority of transwomen do? Otherwise to anybody not in the know they are being presented with a bog standard biological male. I wonder how many transmen insist on communal showering naked with the other men, which if it's normal behaviour must surely happen?

Mollygo exactly Why would a man who genuinely wants to be a different gender want to demonstrate that he is still in fact a man.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it’s a duck.
If the person in transition is still showing he’s a male, he shouldn’t be in there. Why would a man who genuinely wants to be a different gender want to demonstrate that he is still in fact a man.
A person who really wants to portray as a different gender would make sure that they appear as the gender they aspire to be. A man in a women’s space who demonstrates his manhood is a flasher.

I wonder how is it gaslighting if the person was in the process of transitioning?

there was a bit missing from my previous post and link. sorry.
can't find it now.
some of these issues are being discussed over on our junior colleagues' site.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3489313-School-girls-gaslit-en-masse-after-encountering-naked-man-in-swimming-pool-shower

I still fail to see how any single organisation no matter how influential can exercise power over so many disparate sections of society.

I think that Stonewall set out as a laudable organisation that succeeded in its aim to get rights for gay men and lesbians, but when they had achieved that they realised that they were victims of their own success and were no longer necessary, so attached themselves to the trans cause.

Their Diversity Champion kitemark is desirable for places like universities and local councils as it suggests that as large employers serving diverse client bases they are inclusive and fair to all. The threat of having that kite mark removed has been resisted, as the PR would be bad, and Stonewall knows it.

There is also a lot of misunderstanding on the lines of the things that were said about racism in the 80s and 90s (you 'aren't allowed' to say black coffee, etc) and budgets for Equal Opps staff have been cut.

Consequently, Stonewall has a lot more 'influence' than it would have, as in the absence of qualified Equal Opps staff, decisions about how to deal with accusations and incidents falls to the PR teams (themselves strapped for cash) or others with little specific diversity training, and they agree to Stonewall's demands, which include 'No Debate' and a zero tolerance attitude to expressing any view that is not in favour of putting trans rights first.

VioletSky's comment at 13:55 makes sense. I don't think the problem is trans women, I think the problem is men, masquerading as trans women. It is the same old, same old. Cis men acting as a threat to women.
I agree. The trouble is that when men who say they identify as women can enter women's spaces and no-one can stop them, they pose a threat to women. Whether that is the fault of transwomen or not (and clearly it's not) is not the point for the women being attacked, and there is no point in pretending that it doesn't happen.

I (and others) have said all along that we are not transphobic, and that we are not setting out to be difficult towards transwomen who just want to live their lives, just that as feminists, where there is a clash of interest we would always put women's rights above those of transwomen.

As for the 'personal insults' thing, I won't comment?

But the law is quie clear on that*Doodledog*if there is a chance that women would not use a facility or space because transwomen were present, transwomen even those with a GRC can be banned. The appropriate question might be why isn't that law being applied. I think it is because it suits those with the authority to ensure the law is enforced to have women split into factions with one section of them blaming everything on transwomen. Some seem to think it is all the fault of Stonewall. I still fail to see how any single organisation no matter how influential can exercise power over so many disparate sections of society.

Sorry welbeck, is there a bit of your post missing? Can you repost?

How many transgender inmates are there? - BBC Newshttps://www.bbc.co.uk › news
13 Aug 2018 — Fair Play for Women examined individual prison inspection reports and concluded that 41% of transgender women in prison are convicted sex

among male prisoners, the proportion who are sex offenders is lower than the proportion of transwomen prisoners who are sex offenders.

That goes both ways though, Doodledog. Any dissent with the gender critical line and the same GN members shout down opinion they disagree with and even make personal insults when they don't have a valid argument to make.
Debate isn't possible if words are twisted and thrown back as evidence that the other commenter is just plain wrong.

VioletSky's comment at 13:55 makes sense. I don't think the problem is trans women, I think the problem is men, masquerading as trans women. It is the same old, same old. Cis men acting as a threat to women.

You can segregate by sex all you like and that minority of men who want to threaten will find a way. They've done it for millennia and will continue to do. As we all know, the vast majority of sexual assaults/rape is committed by men we already know. Stranger danger only accounts for 10% of rape. 10% too much obviously, but...

This has got to be worked out somehow, and that will not happen with "no debate" or with a lot of bullying towards women like Rosie Duffield.

This is the crux of the matter, I think. The fact that when women ask about how their rights are going to be impacted they are shouted down as 'TERFs' and told that they are not being feminist polarises what should be a debate. Women's spaces were created in the first place so that women could be safe from men. Obviously that never meant that we were at risk from all men, but the majority of men were happy not to impose themselves as they understood that the risk posed by the few was significant enough for us to need them.

There is also the fact that some religions do not allow the sexes to mix unless they are modestly clothed. Note, not genders, but sexes. To insist that everyone should access all areas is to disallow women from those religions to take part in the all-female things that they are accustomed to doing. I'm not talking about toilets here, but about things like swimming sessions and sports, or other recreational groups.

The point I raised earlier about men identifying as women and being counted as such in research studies and design focus groups may sound a bit 'fringe', but it is maybe surprising how much impact these things have on the objects we use and the policies governments implement. There are times when we need to know how things impact on men and women differently, and we won't find out if we can't differentiate between those who were born into a sex group and those who identify as a gender.

Some of these things may be tricky to overcome, and others may need a bit of give and take, but the strident 'No Debate', and 'if you don't agree with me you are a bigot' attitudes of some TRAs does nothing to help to move the discussion on at all, and IMO does more harm to the cause of transpeople than good.

I agree VioletSky
The issue of toilets could be solved by having them all as single cubicles with floor to ceiling enclosures, the only downsides to that being the expense and the lack of places for women to relax together and make arrangements between themselves.

With prisons, I would suggest that a convicted sex offender who wanted to transition to being a woman after being convicted, should be placed in a new, separate, wing for transwomen.
I don't think, but of course am not sure, that actual transwomen commit many sexual offences, but really any sex offender should not be housed with vulnerable people.

Sports, I don't have any idea about how that can be reconciled, perhaps three categories? Men, any gender and women.

This has got to be worked out somehow, and that will not happen with "no debate" or with a lot of bullying towards women like Rosie Duffield.

The toilets need to be built for the needs of each and all. The young, old, male, female, disabled or fit should all be able to use the same safe space. 62Granny's description and the fact that theworriedwell's has confirmed that this is what some forward thinking local authorities are beginning to do looks like a step forward for all. We might see the end to the Victorian schooly style loos at last.

lemongrove

The leader of the Lib Dems was on radio 4 this morning and thinks that there should be no safe spaces just for women (biological females) so there you have it, don’t vote for them.

He did say rather more than that, didn't he lemongrove. For instance, he thought there should be some in-depth discussion about it. He also commented on Johnson's attempt to make this yet another cultural issue. It looks like his followers are doing the same, thus attracting those with more brawn (or simple attempt at verbal force) than brain. I wonder if he is worried, yet again, about the votes that are drifting off to the even more far-right, even more populist "Reform UK".

Men are not the issue. Predatory people are the issue. We should be ensuring safety for all - not "othering" yet another group in a Goebbelsain way. The way the Tories are going we will all end up in a group of "othered" people and they will have no one left!

I don't think the problem is trans women, I think the problem is men, masquerading as trans women.

Within my experience transwomen seem no more dangerous than those born as women, it's just that women generally get away with it.

Like my mother and grandmother who both abused me in different ways and got away with it.

I don't hate women as a result and I don't hate all transwomen for the crimes of a few.

I do understand the fear though. It was the same fear I felt when the gas meter reader came and I had to let him into my house knowing that criminals had in the past masqueraded as gas meter readers to get access to a vulnerable persons home.

It's difficult but fear can cross the line into phobia, so riling everyone up is also dangerous to the mental health of trans women who have already been through a lot as well as dangerous for the mental health of women who now feel unsafe due to the vocal few.

Trans women aren't going away, they have been using female spaces for years until now. For that reason I personally feel the discussion needs to be how we help everyone feel safe again in future, in an inclusive way.

Rosie51

theworriedwell if your unisex toilets were as described by basicallygrace12 would that influence your approval of them?

I wouldn't want ours to go back to being in blocks single sex or unisex, I think loos like we have should be the accepted standard. Safer and more private. I don't want to listen to other women in the toilet, I don't want the smells and I can't imagine why anyone would.

Galaxy

Well no men wouldnt complain because the risk to them is less of course.
I dont think women are saying what other women should be comfortable with I think they are saying what they are uncomfortable with. So it's great if you for example are happy with those toilets but that doesnt mean that other womens discomfort (as you mentioned) doesnt count.

No other women are telling me what I should be comfortable with. As an example I used to work in an old Victorian building. There was a ladies loo on the first floor and the gents was in the back yard. I was the only woman who worked there but there were about 18 men and I was asked if I minded the men using the ladies loo as they had been doing before I moved there. I said it was fine. A woman who occasionally came to the office objected and made a complaint about the men and me. I mentioned it on another site when toilets were being discussed and I got lots of abuse. Apparently when I was asked if I minded I should have lied and said yes, well I didn't I told the truth as I didn't mind. It was never a problem. The loo was like you'd have in a family home, just like my downstairs loo except a bit bigger. I had no issue with men using it but I wasn't entitled to have that opinion.

Do you think it is disability discrimination as disabled toilets are almost always (maybe always) unisex and I've never heard anyone have a problem with that.

theworriedwell if your unisex toilets were as described by basicallygrace12 would that influence your approval of them?

basicallygrace12

We visited a tourist attraction in Derbyshire this week, the toilets are now all unisex. This would be fine if each was individual (eg a door from street and wash basins etc were in cubicle) but they are still behind doors that were obviously mens/ladies before change. I thought it wouldn't bother me, but i am aware my special needs daughter, and many others would feel unsafe coming out and bumping into a male when going to wash hands/put on make up/brush hair etc. I can't decide if it is unsafe or if this is a learnt behaviour from expectations of past history.
One thing i do know, when i went to a womens refuge to escape my violent ex, if he had chance to self identify he would have been in there like a shot (he told my solicitor i was incapable , as a woman, of making decisions (she was female!) and also told the judge a t the divorce courts the same!

They've done that on the cheap I would think. In my area they knocked the old blocks down and the new ones are purpose built with door from the street/prom into a proper brick built cubicle with a basin. Having said that our old blocks were a disgrace and did need completely replacing, maybe it is a harder decision if they are in decent nick.

62Granny

Perhaps all toilets and changing rooms should be single person booth style rather than same sex communal as they are in some restaurant chains to be used by either sex and open space, so you don't feel so isolated.

Yes that is what our new public loos are like. Nice and new and up to date and private, not like the cubicles that are open at the top and bottom.

I prefer everyone to keep their clothes on unless I'm life drawing. I know it's odd but there you are.

I think accusing men who take their clothes off in front of children of "flashing" is just so wrong. If you think it's OK for people to be naked in front of children why should their sex or their gender matter? I was wondering is there an age when this kicks in. So naked boys are OK but after puberty NO?

Their gender matters not a jot, that's an artificial construct, and if they're naked then only their biological sex will be discernible. Surely even you must accept the autonomy of deciding who may see you naked and who you are willing to see naked? Being prepared to see or be seen by one group of people naked does not mean you should be prepared to see or be seen naked by just anyone. What would you call a man who parades his penis erect, flaccid or in between in a designated female only area? If a man wanted to strip off in the children's playground, that would be OK with you?

halfpint1

This is very tiresome.
Many women just want to have a wee in peace without worrying .
Unisex toilets don't do that. They are a mistake for a vast majority of women

Why? Just because a man might have used it before or after you, why would that worry you?

For you trisher -(and for all I know you may have a particular reason for wanting transwomen to have access to women’s spaces) your focus on any discussion on this matter is the rights of transwomen. Occasionally you drag in butch lesbians, or big strong women with deep voices, or your version of feminism, or other diversions. The OP is concerned about the rights of women being eroded and that this needs attention to stop it happening.
Incidentally, your point about predatory men not even needing to dress up as women to go into toilets is quite true. However, predatory men not dressed up as women would be unlikely to call attention to themselves by going into women’s facilities.
That’s why those predatory men may self ID as women and dress as women to gain access to women’s spaces. Many self ID may well be innocent -simply using the women’s facilities to support their gender decision. The problem isn’t them.
The problem is that some quite obvious or less obvious males, self IDing as women do access the spaces, demonstrating that they are really male and causing distress to women. That’s wrong.
Your posts seem to indicate that you think that the women are at fault for feeling that way.

I think accusing men who take their clothes off in front of children of "flashing" is just so wrong. If you think it's OK for people to be naked in front of children why should their sex or their gender matter? I was wondering is there an age when this kicks in. So naked boys are OK but after puberty NO?

This is another diversion from the point of self-id for trans people. As I said, the idea that men should not expose their genitals to children is largely to protect them from accusations of 'flashing', not that I am saying that every man showing his penis is doing so. To be fair, I can't think of many circumstances where he would be doing so 'innocently', but in those cases, eg life drawing for children, if such a thing exists, there would usually be suitable supervision in order to safeguard the children.

I agree with those advocating single cubicle toilets with sinks, so avoid the hand washing area where people of either sex can lurk. It's a shame, though - the 'powder room' in a club or busy pub was always a place for women to go together, to discuss things in private and to share make-up etc, and they will lose that bonding space, which may not seem important (and isn't important when set against possible assault), but yet again women are giving way and losing part of their culture to make room for men.

Trisher you just don't get it. It's about how women feel about, what are physically, men being in an all female, previously safe space.
It's not about trans rights but women's rights.