Johnson's attempts to limit our democratic freedoms

I watched a very interesting programme on BBC4 last night about the Hapsburgh empire and Vienna. Hitler was an impoverished artist in Vienna in the early 1900’s, and was twice rejected by the arts academy as his artistic skills were not good enough. Whilst there he was greatly influenced by the anti Semitic mayor Karl Lueger. Later he was to take over Vienna and remove the Jews, taking over Rothschild’s elaborate ornate palace. This gives another insight into Hitler’s behaviour and why his dislike of Jews was so intense.Sigmund Freud was also in Vienna at the same time as the young Hitler but fled when the Nazis invaded.

This is off track I know but as the subject of Hitler was raised thought I would throw it in.

No, I have never written that I don't want to "hear" a dissenting view.

lemongrove

growstuff

It's a shame, because I'd hoped for some serious debate about the article.

What’s stopping you?
Just because I don’t agree with you or Freedland doesn’t mean that you can’t seriously debate away to your heart’s content.
If a poster is very left wing they will always agree with the idea that we are heading for fascism, even though patently we are not.When Starmer wins the next GE as I am expecting that he will then that will be the last we hear about fascism on social media.Having had a long run of a Conservative government always brings up these unfounded worries.It did in some newspapers after the previous long run they had from Thatcher onwards.
If you don’t want to hear a dissenting view just say so...oh, you have done.

Because people such as you are not willing to engage in mature debate.

lemongrove

growstuff it may surprise you to learn that other posters are as educated as yourself about the rise of Nazism in 1930’s Germany, and therefore do not need to ‘learn something’.
It amazes me that anyone thinks that the UK could go the same way....we are not Germany in any shape or form.
It’s something that is trotted out on social media regularly by left wing posters.

But Freedland's article was the starting point for this thread and by posting it, the OP implicitly asked for comments about the article.

If posters disagree with the points in the article, it would be interesting to read their analysis of the article and reasons why they think it's nonsense.

Why, for example, do you consider that present-day UK is not Germany in any shape or form. I beg to disagree. There are many similarities. People don't really change that much and I see many similarities. I also see reasons why the UK is unlikely to follow exactly the same path, but discussing that would need to take the discussion up a notch and I can't say I've seen a willingness to do that. All we've had from those disagreeing with the thrust of the article is sneery dismissal.

growstuff

It's a shame, because I'd hoped for some serious debate about the article.

What’s stopping you?
Just because I don’t agree with you or Freedland doesn’t mean that you can’t seriously debate away to your heart’s content.
If a poster is very left wing they will always agree with the idea that we are heading for fascism, even though patently we are not.When Starmer wins the next GE as I am expecting that he will then that will be the last we hear about fascism on social media.Having had a long run of a Conservative government always brings up these unfounded worries.It did in some newspapers after the previous long run they had from Thatcher onwards.
If you don’t want to hear a dissenting view just say so...oh, you have done.

How many people can we belittle and laugh at behind our hands?

I think, Alegrias, that the only people they really belittle with their shallow posts are themselves.

It's a shame, because I'd hoped for some serious debate about the article.

It's a jolly jape MaizieD. How many concerned people can we wind up in one night? How many people can we belittle and laugh at behind our hands? How many can we feel superior to because we don't care about people's feelings and think they are fodder for our sad little midnight jokes?

Well not this one.

If you don't need to critique Freedland what are you doing on a serious Politics thread? Just popping on to tell some seriously worried people that they're stupid?

I CBA to trawl through this thread again, but IIRR it was the naysayers who brought up, among others, Nazi Germany. And it is they who refuse to make any attempt to explain why they don't think Freedland's appraisal is correct.

It isn’t accusing MaizieD it’s just a fact that on lots of forums
Left wing voters often make references to Hitler and Nazism.
I don’t need to critique Freedland, detailed or otherwise for you, why should I bother?He’s writing a journalistic piece and wants it to stand out, and is left wing.
In just a few years time there is bound to be a Labour government in power and then all the nonsense about the UK fast becoming a fascist place will suddenly cease!

lemongrove

growstuff it may surprise you to learn that other posters are as educated as yourself about the rise of Nazism in 1930’s Germany, and therefore do not need to ‘learn something’.
It amazes me that anyone thinks that the UK could go the same way....we are not Germany in any shape or form.
It’s something that is trotted out on social media regularly by left wing posters.

It's great to know that other posters have studied Germany and German history to degree level. I'm looking forward to the mature discussions. Bring them on!

Maybe somebody could give some reasons why the country won't go in the same direction as pre-war Germany did.

Present-day Germans have a much greater understanding of their history and what happened than the British seem to. It's all been part of the denazification process. Hopefully, the British won't have to learn from personal experience.

lemongrove

growstuff it may surprise you to learn that other posters are as educated as yourself about the rise of Nazism in 1930’s Germany, and therefore do not need to ‘learn something’.
It amazes me that anyone thinks that the UK could go the same way....we are not Germany in any shape or form.
It’s something that is trotted out on social media regularly by left wing posters.

So where is your detailed critique of Freedland? If you, and others, are so confident that the UK is not like prewar Germany and that the actions of the government are not in any way sinister you should be able to come up with something a trifle more convincing than accusing commentators of being 'left wing'.
one can only be relieved that they weren't labelled enemies of the people...yet

growstuff it may surprise you to learn that other posters are as educated as yourself about the rise of Nazism in 1930’s Germany, and therefore do not need to ‘learn something’.
It amazes me that anyone thinks that the UK could go the same way....we are not Germany in any shape or form.
It’s something that is trotted out on social media regularly by left wing posters.

Although corruption and cronyism is part of it, my understanding was that this thread was about the undermining of democracy. It's a pity so many attempts have been made to trivialise and divert the thread.

lemongrove

I can’t believe that Campbell is being held up as some sort of
Holier than thou philosopher?
GG13 the first mention of Nazi Germany/Hitler on here was the signal for me to not take anything seriously, it’s always done as a last resort, but this time came early on.

From a historical and psychological perspective, the rise of Nazi Germany is fascinating, if also terrifying.

Germany was one of the most civilised countries on earth. It could not have been predicted that it would carry out a genocide based on anti-semiticism. At the time, France had a more anti-semitic history than Germany.

The key to understanding the rise of Hitler is realising that he was supported by the people (Volk), who had been manipulated - the "will of the people". The Nazis used democratic and legal processes to orchestrate their rise. It's said that they never broke the law, because they just changed them. Even in 1945, when people had turned against Nazism and knew they'd lost the war, there was still significant worship of Hitler as a person.

If all you can do is make crass, sneery comments, I suggest you look a bit more deeply. There are some chilling parallels between the 1930s and now. It's studied because it was so novel and difficult to understand. One would have hoped lessons were learnt. Try reading some diaries and letters from people living in 1930s Germany. They were perfectly normal, who didn't have the benefit of hindsight. What they wrote is very similar to comments which can be read almost every day on GN. If you don't want to read on when Hitler is mentioned, it's a shame because you could learn something.

Report by the BBC, worth a look on their news app.

To be in the top 10 of Conservative donors, you're going to need a seven figure sum.
bbc.com

On second thoughts….bar none.

I think “wokey wokes “ is possibly the most ridiculous, not to say childish, things I’ve seen on GN. Bar one. I despair,

lemongrove

If you are asking...’are we a squeaky clean near saintly country,
With no hint anywhere of corruption/ back handers/ sweeteners etc’ then the answer is no. That’s because no country in the whole world is! We are certainly better than a great deal of EU countries though and massively better than other far flung places.

No, I'm not. That's your interpretation.

But let's go with it.

How much corruption are you prepared to tolerate?

What about all those improperly awarded (the courts say they were) contracts for useless PPE that went through a 'VIP lane' of friends and donors. Are they OK?

The PM's home decorating costs being paid for by party donors. OK?

Ministers who break the Ministerial Code being allowed to stay in post. OK?

Plans to alter the voting system to make it harder for some people to vote. OK?

lemongrove

If you are asking...’are we a squeaky clean near saintly country,
With no hint anywhere of corruption/ back handers/ sweeteners etc’ then the answer is no. That’s because no country in the whole world is! We are certainly better than a great deal of EU countries though and massively better than other far flung places.

We used to be looked up to. We no longer are. The cronyism and corruption that has taken place during Johnson's term as PM, nearly two years, outweighs anything that happened under previous governments.

lemongrove

I can’t believe that Campbell is being held up as some sort of
Holier than thou philosopher?
GG13 the first mention of Nazi Germany/Hitler on here was the signal for me to not take anything seriously, it’s always done as a last resort, but this time came early on.

Lemongrove I assume that you are referring to my own and Ayse's posts about Hitler. Did you not read and inwardly digest them?

Both of us were attempting to explain in different ways that the rise of Hitler occurred because of various events in Germany. Some people tend to think of Hitler only as the period since he became Chancellor and started to remove the Jewish people from Germany. Whilst he moved up through the ranks of the Nazi Party quite quickly, he was critical of the government. It took 13 years for him to be made Chancellor, from 1919 to 1932 and it was only then that he could change the direction that Germany took. Outside of the Nazi Party, before he became Chancellor he had little or no effect upon the govt's policies.

Johnson has been in power since the end of 2019 and is seeking to make drastic changes to our democracy.

By the way,it was Lincslass who first mentioned the European dictators of the 20th century, not one of us "lefties" and/or Guardian readers. Your own posts have added little to the debate, sadly.

If you are asking...’are we a squeaky clean near saintly country,
With no hint anywhere of corruption/ back handers/ sweeteners etc’ then the answer is no. That’s because no country in the whole world is! We are certainly better than a great deal of EU countries though and massively better than other far flung places.

Alegrias1

OK, that's acceptable criticism. See the difference?

Although there's a wee slip into Campbell-berating there, lemongrove, but we'll let it go, seeing as you're trying.

But what evidence does lemon have that this country is not corrupt?

Isn't paying for honours corrupt?

You are too kind Algerias ?