Johnson's attempts to limit our democratic freedoms

Whitewavemark2

I thought we left the EU to gain greater democratic freedom?

Different democracy, Wwmk2.

I don't think that Leavers thought much beyond the fact the they'd 'won'. That trumped everything. How the vote they'd 'won' was to be implemented was not their concern. Parliamentary democracy didn't enter into it.

My personal opinion of what I think BJ's objectives may or may not be are not relevant to my last post MazieD. We should be mature enough to understand that not everyone agrees with our point of view. There's no need to suggest anyone who doesn't is blinkered, unable to understand or is simply choosing to ignore.

Smileless2012

My personal opinion of what I think BJ's objectives may or may not be are not relevant to my last post MazieD. We should be mature enough to understand that not everyone agrees with our point of view. There's no need to suggest anyone who doesn't is blinkered, unable to understand or is simply choosing to ignore.

Of course everybody won't agree with my point of view and you might not agree with the views of those on here who are concerned about Johnson's objectives. However, you haven't provided a factual riposte to either the article or other statements made.

No I haven't Dinahmo and have no intention of doing so. If however I were to disagree with any of the views expressed here, I would do so without disparaging the poster(s) whose opinion(s) I disagreed with.

1. Mr.Johnson is lazy, a liar, not clever, not organised.

2. Mr.Johnson is planning to turn U.K. into a dictatorship, with himself at the helm.

They cannot both be true.

There does appear to be a sense of mounting hysteria on the N & P threads.

Smileless2012

My personal opinion of what I think BJ's objectives may or may not be are not relevant to my last post MazieD. We should be mature enough to understand that not everyone agrees with our point of view. There's no need to suggest anyone who doesn't is blinkered, unable to understand or is simply choosing to ignore.

But you're evading the issue. How can you justify the actions which have been taken to limit freedoms?

It's not a question of agreeing with anybody's point of view. It's about being empowered to express a point of view and influencing how we are governed. There is no doubt at all that steps have been taken to limit that. It really is before our eyes.

GrannyGravy13 I pondered that one too

Smileless2012

No I haven't Dinahmo and have no intention of doing so. If however I were to disagree with any of the views expressed here, I would do so without disparaging the poster(s) whose opinion(s) I disagreed with.

So why have you contributed to the thread to say you won't be contributing?

GrannyGravy13

1. Mr.Johnson is lazy, a liar, not clever, not organised.

2. Mr.Johnson is planning to turn U.K. into a dictatorship, with himself at the helm.

They cannot both be true.

There does appear to be a sense of mounting hysteria on the N & P threads.

I'm not sure many of the dictators of history were known for their organisational skills.

Julius Caesar, maybe. Or Genghis Khan.

Not much of a project manager, that Hitler.

GrannyGravy13

1. Mr.Johnson is lazy, a liar, not clever, not organised.

2. Mr.Johnson is planning to turn U.K. into a dictatorship, with himself at the helm.

They cannot both be true.

There does appear to be a sense of mounting hysteria on the N & P threads.

Why can't both be true?

Many historians have claimed the same of that little man with the funny moustache (and it's almost certainly true).

No, you're right, he wasn't Alegrias, which is why he got others to do his dirty work.

Stalin was a bit different from most other dictators.

Smileless2012

No I haven't Dinahmo and have no intention of doing so. If however I were to disagree with any of the views expressed here, I would do so without disparaging the poster(s) whose opinion(s) I disagreed with.

It's a shame that you won't, Smileless because you might well come up with something that we've overlooked that might modify our opinions.

Or at least give us an insight into how other people's opinions are formed. Without insight we are just left with possibly mistaken generalisations, such as people being blind to what is happening.

growstuff

No, you're right, he wasn't Alegrias, which is why he got others to do his dirty work.

great minds think alike growstuff.

Alegrias1

GrannyGravy13

1. Mr.Johnson is lazy, a liar, not clever, not organised.

2. Mr.Johnson is planning to turn U.K. into a dictatorship, with himself at the helm.

They cannot both be true.

There does appear to be a sense of mounting hysteria on the N & P threads.

I'm not sure many of the dictators of history were known for their organisational skills.

Julius Caesar, maybe. Or Genghis Khan.

Not much of a project manager, that Hitler.

I am having trouble understanding why according to some Mr.Johnson couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery but is now planning what amounts to a political takeover and cancelling elections

Mr.Johnson is lazy, a liar, not clever, not organised.

But he is influenced by others in his government, by what is 'popular in focus groups, the primacy of part and power, and a host of other things. He isn't running the government single handed, no PM ever does.

The influence of others can shape the direction his government takes because he can only stay in power by keeping his party, and MPs, happy with what he is doing.

I think growstuff hit the nail on the head. He has staff.

He wants to be World King (his words, as a child, I believe) but he's a lazy sod who doesn't want to work for it.

So people can exploit him as much as he exploits them (symbiosis, I suppose). He gets to be top dog by being one of the lads, and the wolf pack following him do all the dirty work to keep him there. So if someone tells him the best thing for him is that they get rid of public bodies that might interfere with him being World King, and that they know how to do it, he encourages them to get on with it.

How long before Johnson arrests and executes his opponents to secure a dictatorship just as Hitler did?

Sorry '..the primacy of party and power...'

(And, the objective of the party in government is to stay in power and shape the country and institutions in the way they'd like the country to be run.)

25Avalon

How long before Johnson arrests and executes his opponents to secure a dictatorship just as Hitler did?

Oh, do keep the debate within the bounds of possibility. Imprisonment is, execution, ATM, isn't.

Alegrias1

I think growstuff hit the nail on the head. He has staff.

He wants to be World King (his words, as a child, I believe) but he's a lazy sod who doesn't want to work for it.

So people can exploit him as much as he exploits them (symbiosis, I suppose). He gets to be top dog by being one of the lads, and the wolf pack following him do all the dirty work to keep him there. So if someone tells him the best thing for him is that they get rid of public bodies that might interfere with him being World King, and that they know how to do it, he encourages them to get on with it.

He doesn't need to do the work himself. He has the power to promote or sack people. When a person is in that position, others will do what needs doing to impress.

Sir Ian Kershaw, one of the most respected scholars of Hitler and Nazism, wrote "There is about Hitler personally, and the Nazis in general, a sort of cultism that attracts fascination".

Kershaw also wrote "The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference", which I always find chilling.

Do you imagine Putin has not despatched people who disagree with him, that Stalin didn’t, that Franco didn’t? These are whom you have compared Johnson with so thought I would continue the analogy.

25Avalon

Do you imagine Putin has not despatched people who disagree with him, that Stalin didn’t, that Franco didn’t? These are whom you have compared Johnson with so thought I would continue the analogy.

Not at all, but you're missing the point entirely.

Just read the thread again.

Nobody compared Johnson to Putin, Stalin or Franco. Except those who think that would be a clever way of undermining sensible arguments.

And the poster who thought the we'd see Stalin-like dictatorships when the wokey wokes get elected.

I am not evading the issue growstuff and where exactly have I justified any of BJ's actions on this thread? You're simply making assumptions and what are you basing them on?

Why shouldn't I contribute to this thread to express my opinion, not on the thread per se but on a particular post?

As it happens MaizieD I am not in total disagreement with some of the views already expressed but don't agree with the way some are expressed for example "How long before Johnson arrests and executes his opponents to secure a dictatorship just as Hitler did".

Really 25Avalon!!