Brexit finally being recognised as one of the causes of the crises

There are many who voted Tory but are appalled by the Vote Leave Government.

www.indy100.com/politics/tory-voter-james-obrien-brexit-b1936905

Casdon I agree with your last post. Using education and health as political footballs serves no purpose to the provider or the end user.

MaizieD I think we are in agreement on education, I would like to see well rounded individuals able to think for themselves, make informed decisions etc.

Yes teachers are also individuals with different ideas on politics/ethics/religion etc, but in an ideal world they would pass on knowledge and the love of learning and not their own agendas. (Uni/HE will inevitably have a fair amount of political bias from both sides depending on institutions)

Yes, there is the same issue with health as there is with education in terms of purpose.
We will have to agree to disagree I think, because my perception is that using health and education as political footballs increases division in professional approaches to improving standards. If there was an agreed cross party direction it would bring stability to the systems and enable strategic direction to be agreed and followed by professionals and management alike within the sectors. Those who disagree within the service would then accept that there wouldn’t be umpteen different ways of doing things.

Casdon

I understand what you’re saying MaizieD, but surely constantly changing government emphasis, and interference in direction adds to the already very difficult issues facing education - at least if there was an agreed approach from all parties it would be better than the current situation? I can say for sure that it would for Health.

Is there any fundamental disagreement across the political spectrum on the actual purpose of universal health care? I don't know, TBH.

I don't see how education, if paid for by 'the nation' can be politically neutral when there is so much difference of opinion as to what its actual purpose is or how it is to be achieved.. Whatever party is in government will have its own views and it is the party of government which controls the purse strings

FWIW, teachers themselves are a highly diverse group which covers the whole range of the political spectrum.

GrannyGravy13

MaizieD so how would you suggest subjects are taught, how does the profession engage their students.

Education cannot be a one size fits all as not all children reach their given targets at the prescribed time.

I have a friend who’s GC was independently
reading before they started school, but still had to go through the pretence of phonics. One of our GC bright and ahead in maths struggled with phonics and has only just had the lightbulb moment at 6ys 8mths with reading and has started enjoying it.

I don't intend to start debating phonics with you GG13 , I've had 20 years of it, studying the research, doing it, and debating endlessly with teachers and members of the general public. I'm actually a bit tired of doing it now.

I actually agree with you about targets and exams to a certain extent. Those SATSs which were introduced by the Thatcher government were immediately desperately gamed by schools and in many cases did the children no good at all.

But you either leave education as a free for all or you have to set some criteria to judge whether children are being effectively taught in preparation for their lives as adults.

Which comes down to what one sees as the purpose of education. There's not a lot of agreement on even that. Are we preparing children to be good workers in our capitalist system? Or should we produce 'well rounded' individuals with critical thinking skills who might, horror of horrors, want to subvert the whole system?

I understand what you’re saying MaizieD, but surely constantly changing government emphasis, and interference in direction adds to the already very difficult issues facing education - at least if there was an agreed approach from all parties it would be better than the current situation? I can say for sure that it would for Health.

MaizieD so how would you suggest subjects are taught, how does the profession engage their students.

Education cannot be a one size fits all as not all children reach their given targets at the prescribed time.

I have a friend who’s GC was independently
reading before they started school, but still had to go through the pretence of phonics. One of our GC bright and ahead in maths struggled with phonics and has only just had the lightbulb moment at 6ys 8mths with reading and has started enjoying it.

P.S as a whole we (I mean everyone, not just teachers) can't even agree on the purpose of education

Casdon

I agree with you there GrannyGravy13, it would be much more likely to raise standards in both health and education if they weren’t used as political footballs with constantly changing directives and restructuring.

What I'm saying is that it won't. The teaching profession itself would continue to to be riven by differing views on 'how' to educate children.

I'm not altogether sure it's even about what children are taught, but about how they are taught.

My last 13 working years were spent in a bog standard secondary school working with children who came in Y7 with very poor or non existent reading skills. Naturally these children couldn't access the secondary curriculum subjects which required a reasonable standard of reading skills. There's a whole lot I could say about that, but my real point is that the prime reason that they couldn't read was because of the method they were taught by. A method introduced in the postwar period and hailed as being modern and progressive. (A method that is dying very hard, too and will be defended by many Gnet teachers .

There are big debates in the education world about teaching methods and they become politicised. I was horrified to find that a method that gives children the best chance of learning to read and thus access a whole world of pleasure and information was characterised as 'right wing'. As people well know, I'm very far from that!

But this happens right across the curriculum. There are teaching methods which turn children right off a subject, which, if taught differently, by a different teacher they would find interesting and enjoyable. The whole education debate hinges on not only what children should be taught but how it should be taught. It's far more complex than just saying they should be taught x, y, and z. And the debate will go on for ever, despite political intervention...

I agree with you there GrannyGravy13, it would be much more likely to raise standards in both health and education if they weren’t used as political footballs with constantly changing directives and restructuring.

I think that education like health should be overseen by a cross bench committee which could/would bring some consistency. As opposed to changing ideology determined by the party in power at any given time.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2 not everyone wants or indeed is capable of going onto higher education. What is needed is maybe a retrograde step in primary/senior school of educating, nurturing and expanding young minds as opposed to teaching them to pass exams and targets set by out of touch suits

Any secondary school which did that would rapidly become a sink school, pushy parents would shun it, it would end up with parents who couldn't care less and before long would receive a damning report from Ofsted.

The content of GCSE exams is due to be changed - yet again. I've been following the consultations quite closely. The people who have been chosen to lead the review in my subject are political appointments. They have an ideology very close to that of former Education Secretary Michael Gove and the proposals reflect that. You may also be aware that BTecs are being scrapped in favour of T levels, which are more suited to more academic pupils.

If you want schools to nurture and expand young minds and provide an education suitable for those not interested in Latin and more academic subjects, the message is clear - don't vote Conservative!

It’s been Tory education policy to increase testing and reduce spending in arts, drama, sports, basically any creativity that isn’t about stuffing heads with testable facts.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2 not everyone wants or indeed is capable of going onto higher education. What is needed is maybe a retrograde step in primary/senior school of educating, nurturing and expanding young minds as opposed to teaching them to pass exams and targets set by out of touch suits

I'd be interested to know who you think the 'suits' are, GG13

And just a reminder that the emphasis on 'passing exams' was instituted by the tory Thatcher government. Which at the same time excoriated 'lefty' teachers for goodness knows what crimes against the tory ideology.

I also agree re education- but we are massively digressing here.

Whitewavemark2

Yes I was agreeing with you?. In my first post.

Yes I was only trying to expand my thoughts, watching GC being basically educated by numbers is frustrating. Fortunately parents are big on expanding their minds and experiences.

Yes I was agreeing with you?. In my first post.

Whitewavemark2 not everyone wants or indeed is capable of going onto higher education. What is needed is maybe a retrograde step in primary/senior school of educating, nurturing and expanding young minds as opposed to teaching them to pass exams and targets set by out of touch suits

Some politics is taught in modern history lessons although not under that name. I often think that nineteenth century history should be taught to all children as it has such a bearing on lives today with the start of so many things. I only did up to 1914 as after that was considered not really history! The event at Sarajevo was the final occurrence.
Events in Ireland and the treatment of the agricultural workers still has shadows today in some areas - knowing some of these things does help to put things in perspective.

What a higher level of education does is to teach how to think critically and not accept what is being said by politicians or media etc without applying criticism and facts.

Those without the benefit of that may be more inclined to accept what they hear or read without question.

I had to look up PHSE .

For me, its just more about being able to reason things out. To understand that everybody has an agenda and not to take at face value everything that anybody tells you, and to understand that the simplest argument isn't necessarily the right one. The small island thing, for instance.

GrannyGravy13

No one could think that a better politically informed electorate is not an asset to any Country.

Maybe include some political education (national & local) in PHSE as a norm?

Yes I think that’s right.

I think the teachers on here will know better, but wasn’t there as part of the curriculum, citizenship or some such thing which included politics, but has been withdrawn?

No one could think that a better politically informed electorate is not an asset to any Country.

Maybe include some political education (national & local) in PHSE as a norm?