Wild swimming? Think again

... and because they are running out of chemicals to treat the water, due to HGV shortages, and difficulties with importing from EU. As well as to protect the share holders of those Private Companies.

vegans why would anyone think it’s ‘ok’ ?
They are doing it as a stopgap because of the present shortage of chemicals to treat the sewage.But everyone should realise that although it’s now happening more because of the shortage ...it happens quite a lot legally anyway, both here and in EU countries.Therefore maybe think twice before swimming in rivers or the sea.

lemongrove

....and it’s a problem for many countries and will have to be sorted out.Antiquated sewers need replacing ( huge enterprise)plus anything else that can be done.Certain cities, London and Paris and Berlin just can’t cope.
Can this be done really soon? I think the answer is no.

I think you are right, lemongrove.

Some of the sewers are hundreds of years old in many countries and perhaps they have not been upgraded or expanded as they should have been over the years to cope with growing populations.

My DIL swims in the local dams. She is always able to check the water quality, before she does. Over the summer, swimming was banned, due to algae.
In fact there is a whole regeneration going on in our area to improve amenities to encourage more use of the dams.

Callistemon

lemongrove

....and it’s a problem for many countries and will have to be sorted out.Antiquated sewers need replacing ( huge enterprise)plus anything else that can be done.Certain cities, London and Paris and Berlin just can’t cope.
Can this be done really soon? I think the answer is no.

I think you are right, lemongrove.

Some of the sewers are hundreds of years old in many countries and perhaps they have not been upgraded or expanded as they should have been over the years to cope with growing populations.

But that is NOT the point- and one more reason for not, on top of this, allowing untreated, raw sewage to enter clean rivers and seas.

Kali I'm beginning to think I'm in a different universe.

You're right. It's not the point.

lemongrove

vegans why would anyone think it’s ‘ok’ ?
They are doing it as a stopgap because of the present shortage of chemicals to treat the sewage.But everyone should realise that although it’s now happening more because of the shortage ...it happens quite a lot legally anyway, both here and in EU countries.Therefore maybe think twice before swimming in rivers or the sea.

So why reject a law which aimed to improve the situation?

What is the point then? It’s easy to say ‘it shouldn't happen’ but the fact is it does happen and happens regularly both legally and illegally both here and EU countries.The Environment Agencies allow so many raw sewage discharges into rivers a year.Other times , illegally in various countries it’s just done on the quiet.
It would be lovely if it didn’t happen at all, but it has been happening for years and years.What’s the answer?

growstuff you need to read about it.
At the moment there’s a shortage of the chemicals used to treat it, therefore more will have to be discharged into rivers untreated until the situation improves.There is no other way.

But lemongrove you are still trying to justify this - we should be campaigning to stop this disgusting practice not condoning it. The companies SHOULD be fined not let off , the government are enabling it when they could and should be more pro active.

They have to enable it at the moment! Unless some of you are offering to store it in your gardens.
It’s a stopgap measure.

Can you prove this happens elsewhere? EU regs makes it illegal.

The POINT is that there are problems with older sewers, in the UK for instance due to under-funding and privatisation, and keeping share-holders sweet. And that because of the above, Brexit is making this much much worse as water purification chemicals are imported, prices going up, difficulties with importation and shortage of HGV drivers. Problems existed BEFORE Brexit- but they are being made much much worse now, POST Brexit.
Why can't you or won't you, or both' understand this. It is quite simple really. You totally exhaust me.

I had been reading lots online about the situation both here and in EU countries.
There is a lot of touching faith on GN around EU regs.The laws are in place but some countries routinely flout them.....gasp!
There are problems with older sewers in France and Germany in certain cities as well as the UK. It’s a problem all round.
Or doesn’t that suit the agenda perhaps.

The subject of the chemicals needed to treat the sewage and the shortages of them have already been covered on this thread.
What more can be said ( rhetorical question.)

lemongrove

They have to enable it at the moment! Unless some of you are offering to store it in your gardens.
It’s a stopgap measure.

It happens at least once a week at the coast near us.

Forgive me for just talking about England for a moment.

England's water companies paid £57 billion in dividends to shareholders between 1991 and 2019. Surely a reasonable percentage of that could have be spent on providing infrastructure and systems which mean that discharging sewage into our waterways is only necessary in extremis.

Surely our government should do something to ensure water companies do this?

How polluted do our country's waterways have to become before we take action? How ruined does this vital resource for our wildlife and our own wellbeing have to become?

For all those who don't wild swim please think of the people who do, think of the wildlife, of those who fish, paddleboard or just walk besides the water as part of those things which make life worth living. Think of all the people who live on our around our waterways. Think of the oceans and how our Earth depends entirely on them.

You might not swim, but you probably do eat fish. You probably feed fish to your children and grandchildren. Those fish swim in your excrement.

Sewage, shopping trolleys, plastic rubbish......none of it should be in our waterways and we are letting it all happen on our watch.

I love the sea. I swim in the sea off of Somerset almost every day of my life. A swimming group of 80 people in my local town also swim daily. I know what's happening to the water but continue to do it as it is so uplifting, such an important part of my life and a peacemaking experience. It connects me with nature and that seems to be what is lacking in people who will just let this happen and say 'yeah, but what can be done'.

What can be done is that the people taking our water rates can fund the system not the shareholders.

Our water is a beautiful, essential resource and once it is ruined we are truly buggered.

We don’t “have to enable it” we could do something about it - take water and waterways out of private hands for one thing. Don’t just wring our hands and say “its a stopgap” - it’s not acceptable. Fine those companies big time in the interim. It’s all very well saying other countries do this or that - we are amongst the worst - not something to brag about.

If water companies didn’t pay investors there wouldn’t be water companies. Should their dividends be smaller? Perhaps.
They should certainly do all they can to keep our rivers clean.
The government could crack down on them as hard as it likes in theory, in practise it could be difficult.They have to attract investors.Up to recently some water companies have been good and some less so where pollution is concerned. The laws are in place to protect, that’s what the Environment Agency oversees, but in England and many other countries laws are disregarded at times.....when they are ( in England) then huge fines are imposed, like recently with Southern Water.
Anyone who enjoys wild swimming, either in rivers or the sea does it at their own risk and always have done.

We do have to enable it just at the moment, a stopgap is exactly that.The sewage has to go somewhere if it can’t be treated right now even if water was privatised at some point.
That’s why it was voted for in Parliament, not because any of them liked the idea of it.

Wild swimmers can and should evaluate the risks. Wildlife has no such option.

This isn't really about the wild swimmers though. It's about the quality of our waterways.

This isn't just about the stop gap. It's about a history of discharging sewage and a future where no plan is being mad to stop it happening.

The water companies are fined but there is a cap on any fine. And they soon recoup it from the customer. Southern Water has been fined £90 million, but it would cost them far more to put in the proper infrastructure so they prefer to soak up the fine, keep making the profit and carry on trying to maintain the existing infrastructure, which is badly failing.

There is zero incentive to make a private company spend money on renewing the whole thing.

It is a very weird argument to say that as this is going on anyway, why not therefore pass a law to allow it to continue to happen.?

Quite extraordinary.

The government cannot say that this should be left to the private market to sort out, as it is a very odd private market. How much choice do you have as to who supplies your water? And can you switch to another supplier if you feel you are getting poor service or if you do not agree with your suppliers ethics?

Nothing about the market in this supply.

If water companies didn’t pay investors there wouldn’t be water companies. Should their dividends be smaller? Perhaps.

I think you'll find that most of the people who own shares in the water companies have not invested anything at all in the company. They have bought shares from another person who owned them; the money they pay for those shares goes to the person who sold them, not to the company. The original 'investor' could have bought shares years ago, that was the only time the company got any money from the sale of those shares. If it is a successful company it will have used its original share capital to 'grow' its money by trading i.e by selling water and services to its customers. It makes its money for further investment through its trading activities, not from money invested in it by new shareholders. The only time it gets any money from them is if they issue new shares. I don't think that's something companies do on a regular basis. Usually they borrow money for expansion from a bank.

So there would actually still be functioning water companies if they reduced, or didn't pay, dividends.

Kali2

Callistemon

lemongrove

....and it’s a problem for many countries and will have to be sorted out.Antiquated sewers need replacing ( huge enterprise)plus anything else that can be done.Certain cities, London and Paris and Berlin just can’t cope.
Can this be done really soon? I think the answer is no.

I think you are right, lemongrove.

Some of the sewers are hundreds of years old in many countries and perhaps they have not been upgraded or expanded as they should have been over the years to cope with growing populations.

But that is NOT the point- and one more reason for not, on top of this, allowing untreated, raw sewage to enter clean rivers and seas.

Surely it is the point - money should be spent on upgrading the systems.
There should be more public information about what should or should not be put down our drains and lavatories. There was a campaign a while ago about fat combining with wet wipes to form huge fatbergs in the drains - but I expect people still do it.

We can't expect antiquated systems to deal with the increase in population and housing - they need to be updated and treatment plants with modern methods of dealing with sewage need to be built.

*Only pee, paper and poo
down the loo.*
Wet wipes are by far the biggest problem because they combine with the fat to turn into a hard mass which cannot be broken down. We recently had the biggest fatberg, the size of 6 double decker buses, in the history of the water company removed from our town. Incontinence pads were also a culprit!
It is very much the point that growing populations and careless disposal of waste by the public have added to the problem.