Wild swimming? Think again

Whitewavemark2

Scones

The tendency of many on the Left to see those on the other side of the political debate as inherently bad people — even sometimes as something a bit less than human. It is a dispiriting and destructive approach.

I remembered this quote posted by MOnica yesterday when I read Julie Burchill's article on 'woke' in the Mail on Sunday. The dehumanisation and level of hatred poured out in her article, directed at pretty everyone, showed how angry we are all being made by certain people with a grudge/issues.

This is not a left or a right problem. It's a universal problem.

I think the quote is unfortunate because it is too much of a generalisation.

I am a voter who would always vote for a political party whose policies supported a comprehensive welfare state, a high degree of social mobility, a commitment to private ownership within a mixed economy and supportive of a social partnership between capital and Labour.

I class myself as a left wing voter.

My critique of our current government will always be because of the mirror I hold up reflecting my political beliefs.

However, some politicians behaviour and rhetoric i find so abhorrent, and not living up to what we as voters are entitled to expect from our political representatives, that yes I criticise them as individuals. Of course I do. It is a ridiculous suggestion that criticism of those behaving badly should cease -

that is not democracy.

There is a difference though between criticism of those behaving badly, failing or letting us down and dehumanisation and hatred based on a stereotype. One supports democracy and the other creates division based on generalisations whether true or not.

The personal criticism you're talking about is the former and I know I do that too and hope I always will. What Julie Burchill did was the latter. You are absolutely right that the quote was a generalisation. I was trying to provide some balance.

Accidents can happen anywhere, due to extreme circumstances like a flood, etc. But this is absolutely DELIBERATE, and officially condoned by this Government. And it is disgusting.

Nothing will destroy our fishing and shellfish industry better than this- and do expect the French, Dutch, Germans, etc to sue the UK for contaminating their own waters and ... fish ad shellfish- there are huge areas of mussel farms on the French side of the Channel.

''While this is a long-term and on-going issue, recent developments have shown that we have no problem that Brexit cannot make worse. The supply of ferric sulphate is a growing cause for concern.
Ferric sulphate is used to remove phosphorous at wastewater treatment plants. Too much phosphorus starves rivers of oxygen, killing animals and plants. There is no shortage of ferric sulphate but the supply chain crisis means that it is stuck in the factories and cannot get to the water treatment works. As we have explained in previous articles, a shortage of both UK and EU-based drivers has had profound effects on our ability simply to move things around the country.
The government’s response has been entirely predictable. All the way through this crisis, it has steadfastly refused to address the driver shortage and this new problem has not softened its attitude. Last week, it merely waived the regulations. The Environment Agency (part of Defra) will now allow water companies to dump untreated sewage into the rivers for the rest of this year, as long as they get written permission first.
No doubt Severn Trent’s shareholders will be delighted.
Thank the Lords
Not for the first time since the referendum in 2016, we have cause to be grateful for the moderating influence of the House of Lords. Two days ago, an amendment to the Environment Bill was passed in the Upper House which aims to ‘place a new duty on water companies and the government to take all reasonable steps to ensure untreated sewage is not discharged from storm overflows and requires that they progressively reduce the harm caused by these discharges.’
Let us hope that the amendment is not thrown out when the bill comes back to the Commons because otherwise, the metaphors can just write themselves.
We will literally be up shit creek without a paddle.''

Scones

Petera

Scones

The tendency of many on the Left to see those on the other side of the political debate as inherently bad people — even sometimes as something a bit less than human. It is a dispiriting and destructive approach.

I remembered this quote posted by MOnica yesterday when I read Julie Burchill's article on 'woke' in the Mail on Sunday. The dehumanisation and level of hatred poured out in her article, directed at pretty everyone, showed how angry we are all being made by certain people with a grudge/issues.

This is not a left or a right problem. It's a universal problem.

Julie Burchill is on the right. Here is a quote from her last month "any female who has an iota of self-respect would be an idiot to vote for anyone other than the Conservative Party".

It may, or may not be a left/right problem, but Scones' quote starts "The tendency of many on the Left..." So maybe find a better example before congratulating her?

Petera You seem to have missed every point I made I'm afraid.

The quote was not my quote. It was taken from from MOnica's link to an article earlier in this thread.

I wasn't congratulating anyone nor commenting on Julie Burchill's political leaning. I was drawing attention to the battery of hatred towards almost everyone in Julie Burchill's article and how people with an axe to grind - whatever their political persuasion - whip up anger and bad feeling. My point being that this is a universal problem regardless of political orientation.

I may well have done, and I think I mixed you up with someone else who congratulated Monica about her “tendency of many on the Left” post and lumped you in with it. In which case I apologise.

I can, of course, agree with your last sentence. But this is still a political problem -even more so if people believe that, if government swapped with opposition, then the voting pattern would swap too. That's almost the definition of a political problem.

I read in the paper the other day that wild swimmers and paddle boarders are disturbing the bird life and certain sections on beach/access areas of rivers and lakes are being sectioned off.

Thanks Peteraapology accepted.

mrsgreenfingers56

I read in the paper the other day that wild swimmers and paddle boarders are disturbing the bird life and certain sections on beach/access areas of rivers and lakes are being sectioned off.

?

mrsgreenfingers56

I read in the paper the other day that wild swimmers and paddle boarders are disturbing the bird life and certain sections on beach/access areas of rivers and lakes are being sectioned off.

true actually- but the relevance to this thread is ???

So, do some of you actually agree with the way Westminster has voted on this issue? Do you really think it's a good idea to allow unfettered discharge of raw sewage into our waterways, or are your responses just a knee jerk reaction to a criticism of the Government?

lemongrove

Since I have been reading about this subject recently, France and Germany ( amongst other countries) have problems with sewerage in the rivers, including the Seine.So don’t have a dip there either!

The amendment in Parliament ( that was turned down) was turned down for a good reason at the moment.
For years ( including the time we spent in the EU) sewage was allowed to be discharged into rivers so many times a year.
The amendment was about making rivers cleaner post Brexit,
And although a good thing to do, just not the right time.
So, to sum up, it has nothing to do with leaving the EU ( dirty rivers) it was about trying to make them better now that we have left the EU.
At some point in the next few years there will have to be massive amounts spent on new sewers.

For years ( including the time we spent in the EU) sewage was allowed to be discharged into rivers so many times a year.

Absolutely true, but it's diluted sewage. Sewage systems have storm overflow chambers built into them which the sewage normally flows through, but if the amount in the chamber is swollen (and diluted) by excessive rain water the extra is discharged into a watercourse (I have a main sewer running down one of my fields and the storm overflow chamber, on my land, next to the stream that is my boundary). The pipework was replaced about 20 years ago and we don't have half the problem with 'things' (panty liners and worse) in the beck that we had before it was done. So improvements can be made.

The amendment was about making rivers cleaner post Brexit, And although a good thing to do, just not the right time.

Can you explain, without mentioning the fact that Brexit is the cause of the shortage of chemicals for treating the sewage, why this isn't the right time to make the discharge of undiluted raw sewage illegal?

I don't think that the Lords amendment had anything to do with 'post Brexit'. Water companies have been discharging raw sewage illegally for years and years. It can't have been 'illegal' unless there was already legislation in place while we were in the EU.

The Bill sets out a time frame for developing a Plan for preventing the discharge of raw sewage, a year. I, and no doubt others, have little confidence in the government to produce such a Plan...

In the meantime, there was absolutely no good reason to alter the arrangements that already exist for the discharge of sewage into watercourses. The reason for the excess of such material now is the lack of the chemicals to treat it.

A view of the Environment Bill for all , truth, not Social Media or wild guessing. Heard this from another Radio Interview also
www.stevebrine.com/news/vote-explainer-lords-amendments-environment-bill-re-storm-overflows

Thank you, Lincslass.

Thanks Lincs well done!?
Essential reading for everyone on this thread.

Just seen the list of MPs who voted for this cr**- well done to the VERY VERY brave Tory MPs who voted against. I take ma hat to them - but so so few of them, sadly.

Lincslass

A view of the Environment Bill for all , truth, not Social Media or wild guessing. Heard this from another Radio Interview also
www.stevebrine.com/news/vote-explainer-lords-amendments-environment-bill-re-storm-overflows

Very interesting, Lincslass. Especially since a great many tory MPs have the same 'explainer' on their web pages with almost identical wording. One would almost think that they were writing it from a script.

What they are universally failing to explain is why there has been a steep rise in the discharge of raw sewage. They also seem a bit coy about mentioning that water companies have been given permission to increase their discharges of raw sewage.

The Environment Agency is a bit more upfront about what is going on, though:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/water-and-sewerage-company-effluent-discharges-supply-chain-failure-rps-b2/water-and-sewerage-company-effluent-discharges-supply-chain-failure-rps-b

I get to swim in a London Dock, swam every day in August, never got ill, always seems amazingly clean and fresh smelling to me

We can generally depend on this government to be averse to bringing in any measures that contribute to the health and happiness of human beings and other animals.

Eloethan

We can generally depend on this government to be averse to bringing in any measures that contribute to the health and happiness of human beings and other animals.

So true.

I see the government has woken up to the fact that it is on the back foot with this one.

Tory mps are sending out identical explainers to try and appease constituent supporters who are showing a huge amount of anger and alarm.

“104 days after been fined £90m for dumping sewage into the environment and less than 12 hours after Gov voted to protect water companies and not our rivers, @SouthernWater were dumping sewage at 60, yes 60, different locations along the south coast of England.”

Have written to my water company, Anglian, to get their cobblers on it.

Can anyone confirm that for the past 20 years the Water Companies have been donating to the Tory Party?

I have just read this but would like confirmation.

MaizieD

Lincslass

A view of the Environment Bill for all , truth, not Social Media or wild guessing. Heard this from another Radio Interview also
www.stevebrine.com/news/vote-explainer-lords-amendments-environment-bill-re-storm-overflows

Very interesting, Lincslass. Especially since a great many tory MPs have the same 'explainer' on their web pages with almost identical wording. One would almost think that they were writing it from a script.

What they are universally failing to explain is why there has been a steep rise in the discharge of raw sewage. They also seem a bit coy about mentioning that water companies have been given permission to increase their discharges of raw sewage.

The Environment Agency is a bit more upfront about what is going on, though:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/water-and-sewerage-company-effluent-discharges-supply-chain-failure-rps-b2/water-and-sewerage-company-effluent-discharges-supply-chain-failure-rps-b

Well if it’s an official statement of course it will be the same from each MP. Just trying to get another view of what is going on. Will also be reading the Environment Site, when I have a few hours to spare.

Whitewavemark2

Can anyone confirm that for the past 20 years the Water Companies have been donating to the Tory Party?

I have just read this but would like confirmation.

I was wondering about that last night ?

I'm off to google...

There is an article from a few years back where someone said that the donations meant that there would be a conflict of interest which favoured the companies above the customer.

Seems to be bearing out.

The trouble is with this government is that they do not believe in state regulation so this will continue to be a major issue.

It's back to the House of Lords today