Scrapping HS2 for those further north

Chestnut

^In my mind HS2 is a vanity project and little use to the vast majority of people. Just another grandiose scheme and a waste of money.^
I agree, and up until now so did most people. There were a lot of complaints about it and that the money would be better spent on other neglected lines. Now suddenly everyone is moaning about it being scrapped, at least they are on the TV news. They need to look carefully at ALL areas to see what lines need upgrading or building, not just the north. I'm thinking of Wales and the south west here.

It isn't the eastern branch of HS2 which has been scrapped but the plans to connect Leeds with Manchester via Bradford, under the wider Northern Powerhouse Rail scheme.

The population of the whole Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds conurbation is many times higher than Wales or Cornwall.

PS. I think the Tyne/Tees area needs better rail connectivity too.

I don't consider Scotland as 'the north' because it's another country. It has its own north, south, east and west.

What is the north? I see Birmingham as being central so personally would consider that as a starting point. The Midlands is the central region and anything north of that is 'north'.

In my mind HS2 is a vanity project and little use to the vast majority of people. Just another grandiose scheme and a waste of money.
I agree, and up until now so did most people. There were a lot of complaints about it and that the money would be better spent on other neglected lines. Now suddenly everyone is moaning about it being scrapped, at least they are on the TV news. They need to look carefully at ALL areas to see what lines need upgrading or building, not just the north. I'm thinking of Wales and the south west here.

Granny23

I find all this talk of "The North" very strange. In my mind the north is anywhere above Fort William, Aviemore, or the Moray Firth. The Far North is John O Groats, Cape Wrath and Orkney and Shetland . I note that none of the developments proposed by this Anglo/London Centric Government (including the promised Carbon Capture plant) will be sited 'north of the border'. and even the attempts to woo the redwall voters in the north of England are pathetic.

I agree with you. If you see from my original post I did include Scotland. As other posters have made quite clear all the improvements to anything seem to be in the southeast of Britain with the exceptions of Bristol who are having a new railway station because the Ministry of Defence is close by and Birmingham who have a new central station because of HS2.

In my mind HS2 is a vanity project and little use to the vast majority of people. Just another grandiose scheme and a waste of money.

I wonder whether any of those protesting about HS2 cutting through countryside and going too close to villages ever travel by Eurostar? That would indeed be double standards. Beautiful Kent was ripped apart to create Eurostar, and IMO it ill behoves those who enjoy its advantages to complain about similar advantages for the north.

What puzzles me is how, if upgrading is so much better and faster and quicker than new lines, as we are now being told, the eastern HS2 route ever became policy?

It's surely disingenuous to argue that this was not a promise made by the Prime Minister. He picked up a ball that he thought might be useful, ran a little way with it shouting loudly, then kicked it into the long grass .

And of course HS2 isn't all or mainly about a few minutes more or less on certain trains journeys. It's about connectivity, another favourite govt mantra until it proved inconvenient.

Do I get a shiny ⭐️ badge Dickens?
?

It's tragic the way the railways have been neglected over the years. Instead we have HGVs on the motorways carrying goods around which isn't good for the environment when trains could do it more efficiently.
We would not use our cars as much if we had better railway links. I much prefer to travel by train than drive.

Casdon I have north and mid Welsh ancestors so have been aware of the lines which were closed down, especially the Ruabon to Barmouth line. Heartbreaking to lose those vital connections in rural areas as people relied on them. The least they can do is provide top class excellent bus services but I don't think that has happened.
Here is a map of the Beeching cuts. If only they had left those lines instead of tearing them up......

For bad train services mid Wales is the place to be. My nearest train station is over 20 miles away. We can get to Manchester easily, but to get trains to London, Birmingham, and anywhere in the East of the country you have to change 40 miles away in Newport. Further into mid Wales the service is much worse again. We should be the ones with subsidised petrol as there are no alternatives to get around, instead of which because it’s rural it’s more expensive - very similar to Cornwall I imagine.

Urmstongran

Thank you Dickens and MaizieD. What I can’t get my head around is why then doesn’t the government (whichever shade) just print off so much money that we can just have whatever we want? A better NHS. Nuclear power. Employ more Border Force officials. Ditto doctors, nurses and build more hospitals? If it’s all ‘free’ stuff.

Is it a fine balance between borrowing (printing) money and inflation?

And why did Maggie Thatcher insist on keeping a tight rein on our budget at the time. Then stupid Cameron & Osbourne going for austerity measures when, obviously, they will know what you two do. Hmm.

Lesson number 2 please.

Finally (sorry) if it’s straightforward why do two economists never agree on the best way forward? Is the economy subject to several variables?

Is it a fine balance between borrowing (printing) money and inflation?

You nailed it... in a word, yes! Certainly affecting house prices, as well as goods and services. Because there is no 'free lunch'.

New money is created every month by the BoE. The big nobs (as opposed to knobs) known as the “Monetary Policy Committee” sit down and discuss how much money to create.

BTW, both Cameron and Osborne have now both 'acknowledged' that Austerity was a 'political' choice. Which would rather imply that it was not economically necessary.

The North begins at Watford Gap, G23!!

DD2 lives in Hemel Hempstead but grew up in Leics. She is astounded by how many people are convinced she comes from 'up North' and are rather vague about where the Midlands are.

I find all this talk of "The North" very strange. In my mind the north is anywhere above Fort William, Aviemore, or the Moray Firth. The Far North is John O Groats, Cape Wrath and Orkney and Shetland . I note that none of the developments proposed by this Anglo/London Centric Government (including the promised Carbon Capture plant) will be sited 'north of the border'. and even the attempts to woo the redwall voters in the north of England are pathetic.

Just about to go for a 3 hr walk! Hope Dickens will be back to help you Ug.

MaizieD

Dickens

... I meant to add that, there is therefore no urgency to 'pay back this 'Covid' loan.

(There was a knock at the door and I pressed "post message" before answering it!)

I hope you have better luck than I have ever had in convincing posters of the truth of your explanation.

The extraordinary thing is that when you directly ask posters who mention it, who we 'owe' the covid money too, they never attempt to answer..

I think one of the problems is understanding 'debt'... which is usually thought of as inherently bad - on a personal level.

But on a national level, creating debt to invest in the future, can bring huge returns. I equate it, on a personal level, to going into debt to further your education which will enable you to have a secure financial future. Given the chance, who wouldn't!

Yes I have, Chestnut and you are right, it's scary. It''s a wonderful line but we desperately need an alternative don't we.
It's an interesting history, Josianne, how great to have your son explaining it. I remember learning about Brunel and his engineering works.

Thank you Dickens and MaizieD. What I can’t get my head around is why then doesn’t the government (whichever shade) just print off so much money that we can just have whatever we want? A better NHS. Nuclear power. Employ more Border Force officials. Ditto doctors, nurses and build more hospitals? If it’s all ‘free’ stuff.

Is it a fine balance between borrowing (printing) money and inflation?

And why did Maggie Thatcher insist on keeping a tight rein on our budget at the time. Then stupid Cameron & Osbourne going for austerity measures when, obviously, they will know what you two do. Hmm.

Lesson number 2 please.

Finally (sorry) if it’s straightforward why do two economists never agree on the best way forward? Is the economy subject to several variables?

Devongirls, I have a particular interest in the Dawlish railway line, as my son explains the issues with the Victorian structure to me when he works on it as a geological engineer. It is complicated.
The Okehampton to Plymouth route would make far more sense to me too. Fingers crossed.

Thank you for your simple explanation Dickens, the words "new money, lent on a permanent basis" is what I needed to know.

When HS2 was first announced Mr B and I both said, they will start at the London end and then not complete it citing lack of money. So once again another Tory pledge broken and the people in the North let down.

Have you ever travelled through Dawlish in a storm Henetha? It's pretty scary when the waves crash over the train! This picture from 2004. Unbelievable that this is the only line to Devon and Cornwall.

Dickens

... I meant to add that, there is therefore no urgency to 'pay back this 'Covid' loan.

(There was a knock at the door and I pressed "post message" before answering it!)

I hope you have better luck than I have ever had in convincing posters of the truth of your explanation.

The extraordinary thing is that when you directly ask posters who mention it, who we 'owe' the covid money too, they never attempt to answer..

... I meant to add that, there is therefore no urgency to 'pay back this 'Covid' loan.

(There was a knock at the door and I pressed "post message" before answering it!)

I agree, Chestnut. We desperately better rail services here in the south west. The Exeter to Okehampton route being re-opened is a start, so let's hope they now extend it to Tavistock and then Plymouth which would be an alternative to the Dawlish route without carving up too much of the countryside.

NfkDumpling

Can you explain that further please*Dickens*? If money isn't a problem, its just more debt, and its all down to keeping inflation under control, how does that work? (Please keep it simple - I'm not very bright.)

... I'm sure you're just as "bright" as anyone else... I'm not that clever either, but have made a point of trying to understand how the economy works. And I also like it plain and simple.

The money spent on easing the struggles of people and businesses due to the Pandemic came from the Bank of England as a loan.

We used to borrow money from pension funds, wealthy individuals and foreign countries, but this new debt is being borrowed from the Bank of England which is, itself, a government institution, and is able and legally allowed to create its own money.

In simple terms, the government is borrowing money from itself, and doesn't have to worry about paying it back.

Technically, these loans have end dates - but these loans have
been happening since 2009. However, so far, when they reach maturity, the BoE has extended the loan, and not only extended it but have increased the loan amounts, and decreased the interest rates. It is, apparently, a known 'secret' by traders and economists that these loans will be extended indefinitely.

And because the government owns the BoE, it returns any profit made on interest back to the government.

The important thing is that the financial markets recognise that this debt will never be paid back, and will never have to be... it's new money, lent permanently to the government.

This doesn't mean there are no problems caused by this strategy... inflation, etc. But that's for another day.

This is really a very simplified explanation.