Second home owners in Wales face soaring council tax bills after Labour-Plaid deal.

Paperbackwriter

Shinamae

It’s the same here in the Southwest. Locals absolutely priced out of buying a property… my son being one of them

It's a bit of an old canard, that thing about people not being able to afford to buy in their own communities. Here in the borough of Richmond upon Thames, it costs about 3 times as much to buy a tiny cottage as it does in most of Cornwall or Devon. Is this perceived entitlement to stay in the local community something that only applies to rural areas? No way could my daughters afford to move back up here from where they live in Cornwall.

My OH grew up in the Surrey Gold Belt- after a few years in SW London, we moved up to the West Midlands for a 3 year contract- when we bought our first 2.5 bed semi and had DD1. We realised as the job came to an end, that there was NO way we could even afford a small flat in London or Surrey, and moved on to the East Midlands, where our quality of life would be so much better and we could afford a slightly bigger house, and then a lovely family home.

I live in a small moorland village in the south west and work close by. I fully understand why people want a holiday home here if they live in a busy city. Second home ownership has shot up in the last 2 years. Many of these new owners will barely visit, and when they do, they bring all their groceries with them. Those that let their property as a holiday home do at least offer some benefit to the community in terms of the local shops and restaurants. If they do this then they can claim Small Business Rates Relief and then pay nothing in Business Rates or Council Tax so that the local council loses a little more income - to the detriment of the local residents. Hospitality has suffered this summer from lack of staff because the staff have no where to live. So many that are left have been given to notice to leave their rental properties as their landlords have either sold up or moved into more lucrative holiday letting.

At least I believe we are the only 'holiday' home owners where we have our UK flat and certainly the only ones who come from where we live currently.

Our house in a very unloved village in the East Mids has gone up more that the average for the county - definitely not 2nd home owners - but other, prettier, nearby villages have reached their optimum price and people want to live in this area.

It is interesting all these names... holiday home, second home, bolt hole, summer residence etc.
When we lived in London our house in Devon was viewed more as our "family home" because we were all five of us there together. Our London home was more of our 'work base" where we passed each other on the landing but didn't operate as a team. I wonder whether, with people working from home now, homes in a different more desirable locations will become even more popular for people to have that quality time?

Great news second home owners are killing villages all over the Welsh coast and the fishing towns in Devon and Cornwall

I was born in Wales (as were all my family), grew up there and kept the small house my parents left me. Although I no longer live there full time, I return frequently as do my family and close friends. I make no huge profit from keeping a modest, non-coastal property (in a town) that is enjoyed for far more than half the year. Close friends pay us £100 per week at any time of year to help with bills - they frequently suggest they should pay us more!
Together with the people who stay there, we support local businesses and tradespeople. We all eat out far more than ever we do at home! Our plumber there told me he thinks it's outrageous that we have to pay any more council tax at all!
If we lived there all the time, we would look after our garden ourselves. We employ someone to do that - one job he has because it is a second home. He tells me that far more than 50% of his work is in second homes. We buy local food there to bring home and gifts that can't be found elsewhere. We have excellent relationships with our neighbours, many of whom knew my parents. I never feel like an unwelcome invader ...... and then I read Gransnet!

I have 'swallowed' the initial increase in council tax whilst considering it to be unfair for services I use less than I would use if it was my first home. Most large-scale holiday property owners and developers will be registered as businesses so pay no council tax. I could do that but feel it's ethically incorrect. Is the increase of council tax actually getting at the right people? Business tax goes to the government not the local council who say it will be used to build affordable homes so the local councils won't even touch the big players and the super-wealthy.

Much of Wales relies on tourism. In some parts, without visitors, there would be massive unemployment.
I am genuinely sympathetic to the housing market on the coast being inflated price-wise by seriously-rich people who can afford to cherry-pick properties. I could not afford to live on the coast in most places either, even as a first home! Affordable housing is a problem UK-wide though, with property developers buying up cheaper houses, developing them and selling them on at far less affordable prices. What some regions of Wales suffer from is 'ghost villages' in the winter .... but as do Devon, Cornwall and other areas of England.

I choose to use the money I earn to keep this small property in Wales – my much-loved homeland. I could have a larger property as my first home, could drive an extravagantly expensive car, could live an extravagant lifestyle, employ a cleaner, a gardener etc etc etc This is my choice. In the town where this house is there are many homes for sale that you could describe as starter homes. I am not ‘ripping the heart out of any community’.

My Mum, in her later years, used to say to me, "I have nothing to leave you apart from this house." and I will keep it even if it is a struggle (yes, it could become one) because I love Wales with a passion and feel as though I'm 'coming home' when I stay there. My job does not exist in Wales so I can't choose to live there permanently. I can just treasure and protect what I can. What is ‘immoral” in that?

Josianne

It is interesting all these names... holiday home, second home, bolt hole, summer residence etc.
When we lived in London our house in Devon was viewed more as our "family home" because we were all five of us there together. Our London home was more of our 'work base" where we passed each other on the landing but didn't operate as a team. I wonder whether, with people working from home now, homes in a different more desirable locations will become even more popular for people to have that quality time?

Prices are going up because people that can work from home are moving out of London. It's also happening here in France - people moving out from Paris & Bordeaux etc to rural areas and the prices are increasing.

Surely, there is more than one problem here?

People buy or have bought in the past a property as a holiday home in an area where for various reasons there were more properties for sale than buyers who wanted to live there all the year round.

This situation came about for many reasons - the lack of work in country districts is one cause, lack of good secondary schooling, local hospitals etc. etc.

Young people who have finished school move away to study and don't move back "home" again, as they either cannot get work there, or simply prefer city living.

Unless businesses move to the country districts that have little or no work to offer, obviously either the countryside will be left to the increasingly few who either work the land or fish, the retired and those who can work from home and who do not have school-aged children.

Increasing taxes on second homes will presumably discourage people from investing in a second home, but it is highly unlikely to solve the other problems.

In Denmark the problem is being addressed by listing a number of properties as permanent dwellings - if you buy one, you are obliged to live in the house for at least six months of the year and by government offices moving out of Copenhage to small towns all over the country.

Country municipalities that fear that their demographic is increasingly the retired, the elderly and the old, have started various schemes to attract young families, such as guaranting that if a couple move to the district because the one has found a job, their spouse will be helped to find a job too, or paid to look after the children at home instead of sending them to a kindergarten or day-care.

Whether these schemes will work in the long run or not, is a moot point, but it is abundantly necessary to try and make the countryside attractive as a permanent dwelling place and not just as the site of holiday homes.

People are either forgetting, or not realising that many of the old houses in Wales were left empty because their owners moved to new bungalows- warm and easy to look after.

I remember in the 60s and 70s on our many visits to Wales fantasising over do-upables but there was no way in which we could have afforded to do the work or to develop a career.
The same thing has happened in rural France. The countryside is littered with old barns and farmhouses that can still be bought for a reasonable price which would cost a fortune to do up unless one had the required skills. On the outskirts of most villages there are villas built in the 60s and 70s that the local residents moved into.

Exactly this Dinahmo. We bought a 13 bedroom farmhouse (longère) from Brits in Brittany that no French person wanted. Sold it to Brits too. All three of us owners had additional property too. While the local French sat happily, and less expensively, in their new builds and villas. They were bemused at us.

Increasing taxes on second homes will presumably discourage people from investing in a second home.
I am not so sure about this. It will be peanuts to many.

It’s not just in lovely rural or seaside areas, though, is it? For quite a while a lot of young people in London have been priced out of homes in areas that would formerly have been considered nothing very special (I’m not talking Mayfair here) which their parents could afford at the same sort of ages. It’s partly because of the general huge rise in prices relative to incomes, and partly because of incomers, including many very wealthy foreigners.

It's not just about prices, though. It's about the fact that many houses in some villages (whatever their market value) being used by people who don't use the facilities all year round, and don't use the 'everyday' ones used by residents, as opposed to holiday makers) anyway. Local shops, Post Offices, buses, schools - even social groups can struggle when there aren't enough 'regulars' to keep them going. When they disappear, it's a vicious circle, as people who rely on them have to move out, and sell up to more Air B&B or holiday letters.

Let's hope Devon and Cornwall do the same thing. My kids have no chance here - unless they live with us

If successive Welsh govs had not been so plain greedy this situation would not be as it is! Decades ago they were bemoaning the second home débâcle but nought done about it , I remember the burning of homes and the attacks on comer-inners in 60/70/80s but did they do anything? Nope! They should have insisted that ownership be by Welsh nationals and renting only allowed when a homes surplus was the state of play! If folks want a holiday home- build one! On a brownsite too? What's wrong with staying in guest houses/hotels/ lodges/ hotels????? All too common is it?

Treetops05

Let's hope Devon and Cornwall do the same thing. My kids have no chance here - unless they live with us

I remember the first time we went to South Devon in a static on a farm in 80s and a day trip to salcombe was RUINED by some loud mouthed rude tossers from down south who never shut up for a second yelling and carrying on with themselves, what could and should have been a pleasant visit to a little town with maybe a paddle and a gift shop purchase for our little boys was akin to an afternoon listening to the screaming hoards of Chelsea/Harrow telling the world how much money they had and how clever their ugly kids were!!! Never ever been again .never will.

Gabrielle56

If successive Welsh govs had not been so plain greedy this situation would not be as it is! Decades ago they were bemoaning the second home débâcle but nought done about it , I remember the burning of homes and the attacks on comer-inners in 60/70/80s but did they do anything? Nope! They should have insisted that ownership be by Welsh nationals and renting only allowed when a homes surplus was the state of play! If folks want a holiday home- build one! On a brownsite too? What's wrong with staying in guest houses/hotels/ lodges/ hotels????? All too common is it?

In which case even more of the old buildings would have fallen into disrepair. I am talking about old stone buildings which were often roofless and/or with walls falling down. The Welsh did not want them.

The many 'abandoned' homes in Wales need not be left to be snapped up by greedy second/third property owners either. Schemes whereby older property is refurbished modernised and made available as either starter homes or small family homes to locals should be the rule. No home should be sold off to non locals unless there's a surplus. And if local authorities are unable to see the benefits of such a scheme, well they're not fit for purpose. That's the price paid for allowing puffed up idiots full of self importance and void of any talents get into position of local authorities power. Most councils are manned by a majority of 'civilians' with little or no competence I anything other than submitting expenses claims........

Oh dear, just as I was thinking how openly good natured this discussion has been amongst those of us in the city or in the country or on the coast, with or without second homes, who have children priced out of the market and who want to keep rural communities alive etc.
Then comments fly about loud mouthed rude tossers from down south who have ugly kids!

I am talking about old stone buildings which were often roofless and/or with walls falling down. The Welsh did not want them.
I agree Dinahmo. When we were considering wrecks or dilapidated barns, we were told to multiply the purchase price by 3 for full restoration works.

In Northumberland many of the properties are second homes or holiday let’s, mainly the latter. . Having said that many of the local people have multiple homes that they let out and many more properties are owned and rented out by the local landowners. So it isn’t people from out of the county that own the properties. We did have a conversation once with a local person who complained about people owning holiday homes but was oblivious to the fact that their family owned a huge amount of properties and were happy to rent them out to holidaymakers.

People are either forgetting, or not realising that many of the old houses in Wales were left empty because their owners moved to new bungalows- warm and easy to look after.

Dinahmo no locals wanted to buy the abandoned old forester's cottage our friends bought years ago in N Wales. It would have just ended up as a heap of stones.

There are no longer many ‘abandoned’ homes at all in the popular parts of Wales these days, houses are at a premium. Unless of course you want to live in a deprived city area, like Newport, or Wrexham for example - which where the young locals end up because they can’t afford to buy where they were brought up.

Laura, the point you made about why shouldn’t a factory worker ha a little bit of what others have is why I don’t agree with second homes. Other people need them as a main home, it’s so unfair having houses empty most of the year earning extra income whilst your investment rises. People come into nice villages, bringing food with them, not helping local economy, driving up prices so locals are prices out.. I have family with second homes and those lovely areas are empty off season, meanwhile local people move as prices too high, businesses won’t set up there, it’s immoral. Give the factory workers a living wage and they can go on holiday or they could relocate to a nice area, if it had any jobs. That’s what the locals have to do, leaving their families by behind. Do not let more than 5 per cent as second homes, priority should be given to local people and industry. It’s a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted though. Let’s hope what Wales proposes happens all over uk.