Why is this happening?

Full agreement growstuff. The last 11 years have seen l.a nursery places disappear. Struggling parents no longer get a support package of parenting skills/cookery/baby massage alongside their infants/toddlers getting great care and stimulation in the nursery within the family centre.

Iam64

Are we in disagreement growstuff? I doubt it.
My point was a simple one, that having parents who work isn’t the negative some posters here believe.
I’m aware of parenting skills courses, work in attachment styles and much more that were offered by camhs, family centres etc - many no longer available. (Echo - cuts to services)

No, I'm not in disagreement. I think I'm saying something similar.

I agree that having working parents isn't necessarily negative. I was just going a little further and suggesting that some parents don't have good parenting skills, no matter how much they love their children, and those children probably benefit from contact with another adult role model. In fact, I don't think a little time away from parents from a young age does children much harm at all. I think parents benefit too.

Are we in disagreement growstuff? I doubt it.
My point was a simple one, that having parents who work isn’t the negative some posters here believe.
I’m aware of parenting skills courses, work in attachment styles and much more that were offered by camhs, family centres etc - many no longer available. (Echo - cuts to services)

Iam64 as I'm sure you know, teaching a parent to be emotionally engaged isn't something which happens overnight, especially if the parents themselves haven't come from an emotionally supportive family. Sometimes, time spent outside/away from the parents can give children structure, opportunities to interact with others and be another adult in a child's life, etc.

the concern isn’t working parents, it’s the need for emotionally engaged parents who meet their children’s needs.

HolySox

Yes the murder of Ava White is very sad maddyone as is the murder of many children by children that has become a common occurence, it seems. Mothers have always worked but I think they are under greater pressure these days. There seems to be an emphasis on women having 'careers' with every effort to get them back in the workplace asap after birth. Not the only reason but a contribution towards a breakdown of the family unit, breakdown of communities- emphasis on self.
I would agree evil has always been around and we have see knife crime culture in children before so asking the question is a change in attitudes pushing mums into work a contributary factor to the recent surge?

I think that's a massive generalisation. There are children who are brought up in all sorts of dysfunctional family units. Sometimes the dysfunction is caused by lack of money and the parents' lack of fulfilment. Not everybody is cut out to be a stay-at-home parent.

In any case, there don't appear to be any details of the parents of Ava's alleged murderer(s), so I think it's wrong to make any judgement.

VioletSky

From what I see working with children, I think it is detrimental to children to have a mother who doesn't engage with them while with them, I do not think whether mum works or not is the real issue.

I agree with you. I've seen children who would benefit from a break from their parents/families ... and they're not all from so-called deprived backgrounds by any means.

VioletSky

From what I see working with children, I think it is detrimental to children to have a mother who doesn't engage with them while with them, I do not think whether mum works or not is the real issue.

... this!

Just 'being there' as a mother means nothing. It is how you interact with a child - listen to them, talk to them, encourage them, play with them, switch off the TV and teach them, show affection... all these things are what will ultimately affect their development.

Yes Iam64

Does your work with children involve their parents.guardians VioletSky

Maddyone, I take your point about the 12 year old girl whose murder led to this thread. Her parents and loved ones must be feeling unimaginable pain.

I should change that really and say parent/guardian.

Even to this day children at school tell me "my {parent/guardian} said if so and so hurts me I should punch him}. That takes a lot of talking through and undoing.

From what I see working with children, I think it is detrimental to children to have a mother who doesn't engage with them while with them, I do not think whether mum works or not is the real issue.

Yes the murder of Ava White is very sad maddyone as is the murder of many children by children that has become a common occurence, it seems. Mothers have always worked but I think they are under greater pressure these days. There seems to be an emphasis on women having 'careers' with every effort to get them back in the workplace asap after birth. Not the only reason but a contribution towards a breakdown of the family unit, breakdown of communities- emphasis on self.
I would agree evil has always been around and we have see knife crime culture in children before so asking the question is a change in attitudes pushing mums into work a contributary factor to the recent surge?

Thanks Alegrias. Actually I think the reasons are complex, not simple.

I don’t really think it’s about working mothers, there are millions of working mothers whose children don’t go out and kill other children. I was a working mother myself.

No I know Alegrias, I realise that about the title. Perhaps it’s me, but I can’t stop thinking about that lovely little girl with her long plaits, like I had as a child, and the terror she must have felt. Maybe I’m being overly emotional, but it upsets me so much. I get angry about every next murder of women that I see reported, but this particular one makes me so sad. She was so young.

I'm not piling in maddyone.

But the title of the thread is "why is this happening?", and is about violence among the young generally. Some posters think it has a lot to do with working mothers, so the discussion arises.

Whilst all this discussion about working/non working parents/mothers is interesting and a very relevant discussion, I feel that a little girl of twelve years old is at the middle of all this, along with her desperately grieving family. Whatever the situation with any of the parents in this awful situation, a child has lost her life, and however worthy the discussion about working parents, I don’t think we should not lose sight of the child who is lost. Please don’t pile in on me about this and say you’ve not forgotten the child, I know you haven’t, but that’s a bit how it comes over.

trisher, I’m the other side of the penines, both my grandmothers worked till they retired at 60. My mum looked after her 3 younger sibs after her parents left for the 6am shift at the mill. Dad was ‘minded’ by a neighbour from 8 weeks as his mum was back in the mill. Work was irregular - trouble at t’mill
My mum didn’t work till my youngest sister was 5. Then mum worked on market stalls.
We aren’t a family of delinquents either. I was a full time worker, so was our children;s rather. I did the bulk but we shared childcare and enjoyed that. Those children are mud 30’s, working mums themselves

I too was the child of 2 working parents, and that was in the 50s. It taught me lots of things, not the least that men and boys needed to step up and share childcare and housework. The idea that women didn't work is a purely middle class fiction anyway, working class women did menial jobs for low pay. They were the cleaners, the factory workers, the shop workers, the waitresses and the childminders. Even my grandmother always worked, which was just as well because when she was widowed in her fifties she was used to earning her own living. Apparently then we should be a family of delinquents.

It's a complex, convoluted issue, I agree.

Some children do marvelously from terrible circumstances, some, from positions of privilege, do worse.

MissAdventure

I suppose it's a generalisation to assume that every child has extended family.

I agree MissA.

Which is why it is silly for people to assert that working mums cause delinquent children. Too many generalisations, as I said.

I suppose it's a generalisation to assume that every child has extended family.

I agree with you holysox.
If my grandson comes "to no good", it will be no great surprise, despite my best efforts.
There is only so much parenting I can do when I am not at home, there is no other family, and I'm worn out by it all, and yet I have 10 years left to work.