The foolishness of anti-vaxxers

They are only available to those who do the right thing for themselves, society and the NHS.

I do not understand why there is so much antipathy towards the use of covid passports since they are very easy to use, especially if they are on mobile phones.

Because they are id cards which are compulsory for participating in the public life of this country, but they only available to those who do what the government tells them.

I know this is a minority view, but I'll keep spouting it.

People have the right not to be vaccinated, but with rights comes responsibility. without both we cannot be a decent society. But whilst the anti vaxxers are exercising their rights it seems to me that they are irresponsible.

J Vine the other day mentioned an ICU doctor he'd been talking to who had 14 patients with covid. 3 of them had been jabbed, the remaining 11 were anti vaxxers. I don't agree that they should be forced into having the vaccine but I do think that they should not be allowed to go to many of the places where they will come into close contact with other people. I do not understand why there is so much antipathy towards the use of covid passports since they are very easy to use, especially if they are on mobile phones.

growstuff

Baggs

I’m beginning to think that for some anti-vaxxers their resistance may be pathological and therefore only to be overcome by very devious psychological means, which themselves may be ethically questionable.

That aside, all the info I’m seeing about Omicron seems to suggest it’s not as
huge a threat as people feared at first.

And, after all, as Karol Sikora points out: “ Forcing the public by law to take a COVID vaccine is reprehensible.
It will tear society apart, cause unspeakable anger and set a horrific precedent. Choice, autonomy and freedom still matter in my view “

(My underlining).

I'm afraid nothing Sikora says would persuade me of anything. He's a charlatan, who has personally profited from the pandemic and believes in a form of Social Darwinism.

Indeed. The same person who inroduced himself to a Commons committee by saying "I am Karol Sikora, professor of oncology at Imperial College for 22 years."

Imperial College had to take legal advice on ways to prevent Sikora from using any title suggesting he has a position or formal association with it.

Anyone who chooses not to have the vaccine when there is no medical contra-indication is stupid and selfish - I could apply other adjectives but they would probably get me banned.

I don't like the label 'anti-vaxxers' which puts everyone who hasn't had the vaccination into one group. Some choose not to have the vaccination because they think there is some hidden agenda behind it, which may be irrational to some or not. Some choose not to have the vaccination because they are uncertain of its effects and have genuine issues about its safety. Some choose not to have the vaccination because they find themselves caught in a situation where you're damned if you do have it and you're damned if you're not. The virus and the vaccine both can have unpleasant consequences for some. It's a matter of balancing up those consequences and for some, this may be difficult to do.

Harmonypuss

@Whitewavemark2

^Should the unvaccinated receive free hospital treatment for Covid?

We aren’t uncivilised, so yes of course they should.
Perhaps be charged half of the cost?^

I'm sorry, but IMO (other than those who CAN'T have the vaccine for medical reasons), I'd charge anti-vaxxers the FULL price of the treatment if they fell ill with Covid and then wanted treatment.
I could even be tempted to just give them the vaccine whilst they were in hospital coz they'd be having so many other drugs they wouldn't notice it!
Yes, I know, many would say that that's unethical but it's just the way I feel, I'm not a hospital worker so couldn't do it even if I wanted to but I just think these people are spreading the virus around, keeping it virulent in society for far longer than it would be if everyone (who medically could be) was vaccinated.
Grabs tin hat to wait for the fallout ?

It's social contacts, not lack of vaccination, which is spreading the virus around.

In reality we have not got choices because one way or another everyone will get the jab and that is how it will be so why did the government not say that in the first place?

Do you really need to ask?

The government has played politic with people's lives from the outset. It doesn't want to upset its powerful backbenchers and a significant sector of voters.

Baggs

I’m beginning to think that for some anti-vaxxers their resistance may be pathological and therefore only to be overcome by very devious psychological means, which themselves may be ethically questionable.

That aside, all the info I’m seeing about Omicron seems to suggest it’s not as
huge a threat as people feared at first.

And, after all, as Karol Sikora points out: “ Forcing the public by law to take a COVID vaccine is reprehensible.
It will tear society apart, cause unspeakable anger and set a horrific precedent. Choice, autonomy and freedom still matter in my view “

(My underlining).

I'm afraid nothing Sikora says would persuade me of anything. He's a charlatan, who has personally profited from the pandemic and believes in a form of Social Darwinism.

nightowl

I very much believe in the right of everyone to make their own decision about whether to get a vaccine or not, but I’m getting increasingly impatient with the intolerance shown by the pro-vaxxers. So much anger!

Form your own views; do others the courtesy of allowing them to do the same.

Never heard of pro vaxxers standing outside of schools, threatening children and staff. That is what makes me angry. If the antis want to risk hospital admission, ventilation and having all those chemicals pumped into them, or even dying, that is their choice, they have no right to intimidate others, especially children.

I very much believe in the right of everyone to make their own decision about whether to get a vaccine or not, but I’m getting increasingly impatient with the intolerance shown by the pro-vaxxers. So much anger!

Form your own views; do others the courtesy of allowing them to do the same.

I’m beginning to think that for some anti-vaxxers their resistance may be pathological and therefore only to be overcome by very devious psychological means, which themselves may be ethically questionable.

That aside, all the info I’m seeing about Omicron seems to suggest it’s not as
huge a threat as people feared at first.

And, after all, as Karol Sikora points out: “ Forcing the public by law to take a COVID vaccine is reprehensible.
It will tear society apart, cause unspeakable anger and set a horrific precedent. Choice, autonomy and freedom still matter in my view “

(My underlining).

I love this portrayal of what it keeps to save someone. This should be all over the net.

Janieuk : you gave a balanced post and you are correct all the arguments about people willing to have a medical intervention or not are causing a deep rift in society. All over the world now decisions have been made that those who have not been vaccinated are now subject to lockdown. A personal choice by any individual not to have the vaccine is met by the consequences of your a prisoner to your home. It has not happened in the U.K as yet although as far as the new variant Omicrom goes all I am getting from government, media is one thing everybody get out there for the jab. All media are saying is get that needle in your arm. There is talk about another vaccine that will have to meet the Omicrom variant although it will not be known for about three weeks.
In reality we have not got choices because one way or another everyone will get the jab and that is how it will be so why did the government not say that in the first place? it would have been so much easier. I know several people that have been jabbed but they are still refusing to rush out with
their fifteen year olds to have them vaccinated. Also I know some mothers with young children and they are saying they will not have their five year old vaccinated. It must still be a choice for these people.
In regard of this new variant and now new restrictions that are now imposed (wearing of mask in shops and on public transport) all I can say about that is it is not happening at least not where I live. I have been out and about everyday always with mask on and in the shops I see about five people wearing a mask and everybody else just happily going about there business unmasked. So tell me all these people without masks are like that because they are jabbed and see no need to mask up. It is all arguments and rubbish and personally I have heard enough of it all.

janieuk I think you don’t really understand how the immune system and the vaccines work.

Antibodies are produced by B lymphocytes when they recognise infection. They are detectable during infection and for a time after infection until they die.

T cells carry a memory of infection and when they recognise it prompt the B cells into action to produce antibodies again. The vaccine implants that recognition into the T cells without infection taking place. So there won’t be any identifiable antibodies from the vaccine as there will be from a direct infection.

Similarly mass testing for antibodies will tell you if people are infected or have been infected in the past but won’t tell you if they have Tcell memory.

That not really enough to explain how it all works but I hope will prompt you to find out a bit more and not be concerned about antibody testing.

Yes, I thought of that WWM2. But there's a difference between suggesting to people that they stop doing something that's probably going to harm them, and showing pictures of things that could happen to them whether they have the vaccine or not.

And I'm really not sure it works. I think its an easy answer to think that if only the anti-vaxxers knew the truth, they'd change their minds. But I think its a lot more complicated than that.

Aren’t there horrific pictures of cancerous lungs on cigarette packets?

Same principle. They must think it works at some level. Maybe a nudge?

I expect most people agree with you MaizieD and I expect all of us who have been vaccinated decided to do it because at some level we are scared of Covid.

But there is a difference between being scared of Covid and looking at pictures of things which are truly horrific. And its by no means clear to me that they work as incentives. A "real" antivaxxer will think they are just lies and ignore them, and other people could be scared witless. What's the point of scaring someone witless? What about people who can't have the vaccine? Is it OK to subject them to pictures of lung transplants and tell them this is what happens if you don't have the vaccine? I don't think it is.

But if you think scaring people into getting medical procedures is an appropriate way to behave, crack on. The government probably agrees with you.

I think much of the populace agrees with me. The perceived threat of Omicron seems to have boosted the vaccination programme...

I'm not altogether sure what the difference is between telling people that if they don't get vaccinated and catch covid they are much more likely to die, and showing pictures of nasty side effects... they are both on the 'scaring' spectrum.

That makes even the nastiest comments on GN sound like a friendly tea party! I’m not on FB so have no idea.

The facts are though that even vaccinated people can get ill so they may well need to go into hospital and be pumped full of drugs the same as those who haven't been vaccinated. I personally don't feel we should be vilifying those who choose not to be vaccinated, it feels as if we are moving towards an apartheid system - the situation in Germany where unvaccinated people are refused entry to non essential shops and leisure facilities is outrageous and definitely discriminatory.

janieUK Thank you for such a balanced post.

It scares me the way people reply if I say anything on an anti vacc thread on Facebook. I just commented on a Boots the Chemist thread and a Telegraph one and I’m still getting replies on a daily basis from anti vaccer’s calling me stupid, misguided etc. Their use of language is very threatening and patronising. The life of the PM of Australia (and that of his children) has been threatened I believe because of the measures that he has mandated. This, along with the rise of the far right is really frightening me.

I’m really saddened by the rift I see developing in society and the restrictions being imposed all over the world on people who have made a choice about whether or not to have a medical intervention. You only have to look back in history to see where this type of segregation led in the past. Not everyone is an idiot or an anti-vaxxer. Some have made an informed choice, after willingly having many other vaccinations, and may have very valid reasons for not wanting this vaccination, or may have had a bad reaction to their first one and are reluctant to have any more (by this I don’t mean flu symptoms, which are expected, but scarier symptoms which are unusual, I know several people this has happened to). I know this virus is scary because it is completely random in how it affects people, but the vaccine is the same. I feel antibody testing should take more priority at this point - interestingly a friend of mine had no antibodies after 2 vaccinations a few months down the line whereas someone else who’d had COVID had them after a much longer time. I think we need to remember that everyone is dealing with this in their own way, I don’t think there is anyone who hasn’t suffered in some way, the last 2 years have been horrendous, and we all need to support each other going forward. Perhaps if some people get their way and the unvaccinated are all locked down when the virus continues to spread at least they won’t get the blame! I’m far more anxious about how people are being treated than I am about the virus at the moment. Whatever happened to ‘be kind’?!

I think its probably the case that scary picture of medication and damaged lungs aren't going to convert any anti-vaxxers. The "true" anti vaxxers think its all a hoax, or we're all getting injected with microchips or something. So posting scary pictures might make us feel virtuous but its not going to make a blind bit of difference.

But if you think scaring people into getting medical procedures is an appropriate way to behave, crack on. The government probably agrees with you.