The foolishness of anti-vaxxers

Susan55

Peasblossom

Oh Susan you can’t rationally believe that our creator made us with perfect immune systems when humans have been dying from disease for thousands of years.

Long before vaccines or any interference with perfection.

It’s a belief that runs contrary to all the evidence surely.

@ Peasblossom

Hmm, interesting question you pose there.

If humans have been dying from disease for thousands of years, without any vaccinations or interference, then it would seem, as you have just said, that the creator did indeed create perfection if only for the simple reason that the human race is still going, thousands of years later, after however many viruses and whatever else existed during that time. Our creator clearly got something right!

Latest info from South Africa is that with Omicron, you are more than 3 times as likely to get Covid a second time if you only have protection via a natural infection, compared with protection via vaccination.

Somebody dropped the ball there designing that immune system.

I'm presuming these anti-vaxxers won't b seeking hospital treatment then if they fail ill with Covid!!
The vaccinated I fee are keeping them safe! No one wants to be having extra vaccinations if they can help it, but we all have to do our bit to try and overcome this awful pandemic or at least try!!!

Peasblossom

Oh Susan you can’t rationally believe that our creator made us with perfect immune systems when humans have been dying from disease for thousands of years.

Long before vaccines or any interference with perfection.

It’s a belief that runs contrary to all the evidence surely.

@ Peasblossom

Hmm, interesting question you pose there.

If humans have been dying from disease for thousands of years, without any vaccinations or interference, then it would seem, as you have just said, that the creator did indeed create perfection if only for the simple reason that the human race is still going, thousands of years later, after however many viruses and whatever else existed during that time. Our creator clearly got something right!

Oh Susan you can’t rationally believe that our creator made us with perfect immune systems when humans have been dying from disease for thousands of years.

Long before vaccines or any interference with perfection.

It’s a belief that runs contrary to all the evidence surely.

Pammie1

* To state this is rubbish is a personal opinion which you are entitled to and I respect that. However, I have to add that it does come across as being a bit dismissive and a purely psychological tactic to gain strength in any argument which goes against your own narrative.*

So we’re resorting to personal attacks to try to support posting utter drivel now are we ? I have no ‘narrative’ at all - unless you consider having no time for people who spread dangerous anti vax theory a narrative. I had Covid earlier this year, before I had a chance to be vaccinated. It was the most unwell I have ever felt - I really thought I wouldn’t survive it. I contracted it again in July after being double vaccinated - it was like a mild dose of flu, absolutely nothing like the first time round. That’s all the proof I need that the vaccine works. As far as I’m concerned the risk from the vaccines is minuscule when compared to the risk from Covid, so I do take issue with people spreading misleading information intended to stop others from taking it - it benefits no-one.

@Pammiel

I'm sorry if you feel I was personally attacking you. I wasn't really attacking you; more reacting to your suggesting what I posted was rubbish. And I'm sorry to hear that you have suffered Covid but which helps me to understand where you are coming from.

You said that you contracted Covid again for a second time after the double vaccination, giving you all the proof you need that the vaccine works. I do believe the vaccine works; I don't actually have an issue with that. I have to wonder, though, if your second bout of it was milder because you had already gone through the motions of the virus and your body had already developed an immune response. I have seen in various sources that the body may well be more immune after contracting and overcoming Covid so it may be difficult to know 'for sure' whether you had a mild second bout because you had already developed some immunity or if it was indeed the vaccination which helped. Not that I'm suggesting the vaccine doesn't work. Far from it actually; I do indeed believe the vaccine helps anyone developing severe covid.

Please don't believe that I'm spreading dangerous anti vax theories; I'm not. I just have questions about the safety issues, that's all. Unfortunately I have come across several concerning reports of really quite bad reactions to the vaccine and that makes me rather wary of it. I'm coming myself from a position where I had an illness which affects one in 100,000 people 4 years ago. It has left me with constant pain and disability. I used to believe that something bad would always happen to 'someone else'. When I was younger I used to think, no, that won't happen to me, that will happen to some invisible person somewhere on this planet. But I changed that view after having three occasions in my life where that invisible person turned out to be 'me'! That changes one's perspective a little. Now, whenever I see statistics that say adverse reactions only happen to xxx percent of people out of xxxx number, I tend to not be quite so ... what word should I use..... cocky?... about the chances of me being the one having that bad reaction, because of those three occasions when it turned out to be me. So I'm cautious. I find I can't just simply 'trust' whatever someone dishes out to me, especially when there is a strong bias involved. And let's face it, someone is becoming extremely rich dishing out these vaccines and boosters for every mutant virus that rears its head. How many coronaviruses are there? 200? How many variants of Covid are we likely to see in the future? How many boosters over time?

And what about natural immunity. I'm one of those people who thinks our creator got it right and maybe it's best not to mess with 'perfection'. I don't believe scientists, no matter how much they have studied, know more than our creator on how to keep the human race going. We are already equipped with some very good immunity systems in place. Should we really be messing with that? I have to question that.

I do tend to research things myself for answers. I have to say I'm particularly wary of media blocking highly respected and educated scientists who try to publicly state their concerns about the safety of the vaccine but who are blocked under the guise of misinformation. To me, that is not science as science should be. Science is supposed to look at all the facts, all the data, all the reports regardless of whether they go in their favour or not or whether they follow the general narrative or not, as the case may be. All views should be looked at, in my view.

So no, I'm not really anti vaccination; just a bit wary and need answers and would prefer honesty when it comes to getting those questions answered. Unfortunately, in hiding certain information from the general public, I don't believe we are always necessarily getting truthful facts or all the information that should be available; well meaning though they may be. I like the whole picture before I make a decision and I don't feel we are being allowed to see the whole picture.

I don't think it is a tiny minority unvaccinated in the USA. Estimates vary but I have seen figures of 30%. The anti-vax movement has been going for several years in the USA and has gained momentum during the pandemic, according to 'The Anti-Vax Conspiracy' documentary on C4. It is worth watching.

Sago

It is everyone’s right to refuse the vaccine.

My SIL a very fit and healthy ex athlete ( team GB) is currently seriously ill with a blood clot on each lung after the second Moderna vaccine.

Their 1 year old and 7 year old will not be vaccinated.

Either very unlucky or nothing to do with the vaccine... the tiniest minority but still happy to scare monger folk and refuse to vaccinate their children. Have you any idea what covid can do to folk??? My doctor daughter sees it still first hand how critically ill the unvaccinated admitted to A and E are and some of them not surviving. She and her colleagues are sick of the unvaccinated and their pitiful, selfish excuses

* To state this is rubbish is a personal opinion which you are entitled to and I respect that. However, I have to add that it does come across as being a bit dismissive and a purely psychological tactic to gain strength in any argument which goes against your own narrative.*

So we’re resorting to personal attacks to try to support posting utter drivel now are we ? I have no ‘narrative’ at all - unless you consider having no time for people who spread dangerous anti vax theory a narrative. I had Covid earlier this year, before I had a chance to be vaccinated. It was the most unwell I have ever felt - I really thought I wouldn’t survive it. I contracted it again in July after being double vaccinated - it was like a mild dose of flu, absolutely nothing like the first time round. That’s all the proof I need that the vaccine works. As far as I’m concerned the risk from the vaccines is minuscule when compared to the risk from Covid, so I do take issue with people spreading misleading information intended to stop others from taking it - it benefits no-one.

That is the best post I've seen all day...

Alegrias1

I think its a shame that people still think their opinion trumps science. Its like the Enlightenment never happened.

I don't believe that the Enlightenment happened. I read on the internet that it was a hoax.

We do, however, have the right to insist that those who refuse the vaccination do not go around infecting others.

Do we have the right to insist that the vaccinated do not go around infecting others? Because although the risk is less, it can still happen.

Do we have the right to insist that those medically unable to have the vaccine do not go around infecting others? Or are they off the hook because if they infect us its somehow not their fault?

I think this marginalisation of the unvaccinated as though they were unclean is just unacceptable. I know most other people don't agree.

We neither can nor should refuse to treat anyone who is ill, whether or not they could be said to bear some of the reponsibility for their illness.

We treat patients with lung cancer, whether they are or have been smokers or not, to give an example and both health care and social security is available to those who cannot work due to addiction to drugs or alcohol.

We do, however, have the right to insist that those who refuse the vaccination do not go around infecting others.

Most of us are old enough to remember a time when you could not legally marry if you were suffering from tuberculosis or a veneral disease and those suffering from veneral disease are still obliged to inform their sexual partners and to refrain from sex until there is no risk of them spreading the disease.

In our lifetimes discussions have been waged as to whether those who know they have HIV could be sued for infecting sexual partners with the disease.

With these facts in mind, I have no problem with either compulsory vaccination, or preferably just refusing to allow the unvaccinated to be indoors with the rest of us, but I most certainly draw the line at refusing to treat them or demanding they pay for their treatment if they contract Covid 19.

I think Covid has taught us lots of surprising things about different people,how thoughtless some are,having spent my whole working life looking after patients,which I loved.I’m now sad to see how this apparent uncaring behaviour shows in anti-Vac people.Hope of you are safe this holiday season.

I think its a shame that people still think their opinion trumps science. Its like the Enlightenment never happened.

Alegrias1

So Susan55 we can't say nonsense and we can't say rubbish...

How about drivel?

You have taken some carefully chosen facts and built a completely fictional narrative around them. For example I remember, along with other posters, completely refuting the "no liability" misconception about a year ago. I don't have the energy any more.

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I had to smile Alegrias1. I love your humour. I'm wondering who has built the completely fictional narrative? It's a good question that perhaps we should ALL answer truthfully! Me, you, everyone ......

I think it's a shame that people are so divided on this when what we all really want is to have free, healthy, happy lives. That's what we are all fighting for really, which means there isn't really any fight at all between differences of opinion.

If you want to tell me I'm speaking drivel you are welcome to do so - it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. It has made me smile though so that's a good thing towards boosting immunity, with or without the vaccine.

So Susan55 we can't say nonsense and we can't say rubbish...

How about drivel?

You have taken some carefully chosen facts and built a completely fictional narrative around them. For example I remember, along with other posters, completely refuting the "no liability" misconception about a year ago. I don't have the energy any more.

Our generation was the first to be vaccinated against polio and TB amongst others. I don’t recall that we had an issue with “long term” problems etc. We were sensibly grateful to have a defence against these viruses and bacterium, and what a success they have been.

I think anti vaxxers are very foolish and perhaps don’t understand how vaccination works or just how many lives vaccines have saved since their inception. However I do think that in a democratic society we must allow freedom of choice or we run the risk of an authoritarian regime misusing power for their own ends as history has frequently shown. Vaccination does not stop transmission but lessens the impact of the virus for the vaccinated. Therefore antivaxxers mainly harm themselves. There are of course vulnerable people (including those whose vulnerability may be self inflicted eg the obese, smokers) who will of necessity need to self isolate. Covid is in any case rapidly becoming endemic in the population just like flu. We cannot sacrifice hard won freedoms just as we cannot shut down society completely because of the beliefs of a minority.

Pammie1

*Susan55
I also think it is important to point out here that the 'vaccine' being given out so freely at this time is NOT the same as any other 'vaccine' anyone might have had in the past - such as measles, chicken pox, mumps, etc, etc. The Covid vaccine is a completely different technology and still very much in experimental stages on such a large scale. So I can't follow any argument that suggests that if you have previously been vaccinated against flu, malaria, tetanus, or whatever, then this is no different.

It IS different. To call it a 'vaccine' is a misnomer and a little misleading for the general population because it gives the impression it is the same, and it is NOT.

Oh how I wish people wouldn’t keep posting nonsense about the vaccine being ‘experimental’. It is NOT. Claims that vaccines are “experimental”, have skipped animal testing and have not completed initial research trials are ALL false.

This was a claim made in a Facebook post entitled   “6 facts about the 3 vaccines” and has been widely discredited. According to the post, all vaccines are considered experimental. This is not true – they have all been put through standard safety testing before being rolled out to the public. 

Both the United States and UK have authorized the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna vaccines for emergency use, while the former has also authorized shots by Johnson & Johnson; the latter by Oxford/AstraZeneca. 

Emergency use authorization (EUA) in the US and UK has been issued as a result of the severity of the pandemic. When the pandemic is over, the EUA will cease and vaccine manufacturers will need to apply for full approval.

I wonder how many lives the willingness of anti vaxers to believe this rubbish and worse, to try to get others to believe it, has cost.

Yet another post stating that the vaccine being experimental is nonsense.

Whatever you might like to believe, the effects of this vaccine on the body are not yet fully known. This is a FACT. The research on these vaccines is ongoing. Data continues to be collected. Research continues. Giving out vaccines, while the results of their effectiveness and safety is unknown, is allowed only if it is for emergency use. That means that if not for emergency use (i.e. panic use - we don't know what to do so we will do this anyway - what the hell, let's try it anyway) suggests that if it there was no emergency, it would be deemed acceptable that the vaccine NOT be used on the general public until approved by all.

Also, why seek for full approval AFTER the pandemic has ended. Why can't it be applied for now? Would it be because they haven't got enough data collected yet? Why would that be? Because it hasn't been around long enough to determine? Because they are too busy? What?

Also, if these researchers honestly did believe that the vaccine was 100% safe for all, why did they first ensure immunity from any liability should some poor individual/s suffer any consequences of taking the vaccine?

To state this is rubbish is a personal opinion which you are entitled to and I respect that. However, I have to add that it does come across as being a bit dismissive and a purely psychological tactic to gain strength in any argument which goes against your own narrative.

Just to put my two penn’orth in again -
If you travel abroad to certain countries there are requirements for vaccinations against serious diseases, such as yellow fever, typhoid, hepatitis A. Babies and children are vaccinated against diphtheria, whooping cough, polio, hep B, meningococcal group B, pneumonia, measles, mumps, German measles (rubella), flu. Teenagers now get vaccinated against HPV, and some meningococcal strains. (I may have missed some out!) Here in the UK adults over 65 get vaccinated against flu, pneumonia every year, and over 75s against shingles. Don’t you think the scientists MIGHT just know what they’re doing with their knowledge of diseases, viruses and vaccinations? HIV killed 36 million people worldwide, and even now there is no vaccine, although various drugs will allow those infected to lead near normal lives. We should be sooooo grateful for the vaccine instead of the “I’m all right Jack” mentality. We have to protect ourselves to protect others. I have lost 5 among my friends and family to Covid. My sister has been in hospital for a year with heart and kidney damage from Long Covid, and probably not able to come home because of the shortage of vaccinated support workers to care for her in her own home.

Just on the topic of Christine Cotton.

How many of us had heard of her before her analysis was reported on UKColumn?

Unfortunately, not all scientists/biostatisticians/doctors are created equal. She certainly has the background but then there are many scientists who have the qualifications but in whom we cannot place much trust. There’s Michael Yeadon, for example, who used to be a VP at Pfizer, but is now completely anti-vax. James McCormick, who sold bomb-detecting diviners to the Iraqi government, although they did not work and were just, basically, sticks. Then there’s the guy who thought you could turn base metal into gold.

Its difficult sometimes to tell if the analyses and interpretations of data are valid, but generally if a piece of work is published on UKColumn and not a serious, peer-reviewed journal, then the chances are that it is not a robust analysis. Also, just because a scientist is right about one thing is doesn’t mean they are right about everything.

The base metal into gold guy? Isaac Newton.

Pretty sure a 9lb baby was close to term anyway.

mumofmadboys If we charged anti vaxxers for their medical care by the same reasoning obese people and smokers would be charged.

Not such a bad idea perhaps?

Casdon

On a slightly more positive note, it said on the news last night that people are still coming forward for their first vaccination, and that the numbers had increased since the Omicron news, so it is a diminishing pool of unvaccinated. I think it said 300,000 in the last week, although I can’t find that referenced anywhere.

According to my family in Germany it is the same there. Although the incentive is the fact they are not able to visit hairdressers, shopping centres etc without a valid vaccination pass. It affects sick pay too, non if you’ve not been vaccinated, a medical certificate, not printed off the internet, is available for those who cannot take any of the vaccines. This has a knock on effect, apart from the fact many walk-in centres were closed, in that people now are having to delay their boosters because of so many wanting their first vaccinations. Really interesting how they are handling this. www.dw.com/en/covid-new-rules-for-the-unvaccinated-in-germany/a-59261647

SueDonim

Kandinsky

Haven’t got a problem with people not wanting the vaccine - maybe they’re worried about side effects?
People have died after being vaccinated.

My daughter gave birth to a 9lb baby less than twelve hours after being vaccinated.

I assume your DD was pregnant? If not, that is one hell of a side effect!