The foolishness of anti-vaxxers

A chap we know, who runs a maintenance company, was terrified of getting Covid, and kept his kids off school even when they should have been in, has caught Covid and is feeling dreadfully ill. He hadn’t had the jabs. When asked why not he replied that he hadn’t had time! Beggars belief! just hope he doesn’t end up in hospital.

Growstuff

I know not all those with T2 diabetes have a lifestyle challenge. No offence was intended. That’s the trouble with generalisations, they are a catch all.

I agree that nobody should be charged at the point of medical care. Most of us pay of have paid our taxes and some choose to pay additionally for private treatment.

Anti vaxxers have their reasons and while some of these reasons are bonkers, others are not. For example, the experience of the poster upthread whose relative developed blood clots post vaccine will affect the decisions of that family about whether to be vaccinated or not. The choice to be vaccinated by consent must remain but I hope that the number who choose not to will be small.
If it is proved to be necessary for vaccinations to be compulsory for certain jobs or travel etc then so be it. That will be restriction enough for unvaccinated people.

Sago

ayse Nobody wants to acknowledge an alternative point of view.

The reality is we are all part of a huge medical trial and we have zero come back if anything goes wrong.

I am by the way double vaccinated.

I am reluctant to have my third.

I was reluctant to have the booster but as I have a minor lung condition (too much smoking and lung damage as a child) I went ahead. I don’t want to be hospitalised if I can avoid it. I also wanted to protect my children from the immense stress and worry when an older relative is sick.

Nobody can know if there are any long term side effects from these vaccines. We’ve only had them for a year!

Ahem!

Many of our ailments today are caused by lifestyle eg. Type 2 diabetes

Not always!

I've had T2 diabetes since my mid 30s and have never been overweight and have always had a reasonably healthy lifestyle.

Should I be charged for treatment because many people with T2 diabetes have an unhealthy lifestyle?

I do not agree with charging people for conditions for which they could possibly be responsible.

Hetty58

Alegrias1, criminalise - no, of course not - but persuade them, limit their choices, make their lives difficult, why not?

I don’t agree with making life more difficult. Why not?

In the 1930s in Sweden women could only have an abortion if they agreed to be sterilised. The Jewish people have suffered from being ‘othered’ for hundreds of years. The poor in England could only be treated in hospitals (pre NHS) if they were consider to be ‘the deserving poor’.

This is not a path for a so called civilised society to tread.

I wish people would be more precise when they say NHS treatment is free. It isn't. All taxpayers pay for it. It's only free at the 'face' of treatment.

And NHS dental treatment isn't even that except for children.

In other health systems, e.g. in mainland European countries, people are much more aware of medical costs because they have designated insurance/tax payments, etc. Perhaps this isn't a bad idea.

There have been so many attempts to ‘educate’ or ‘encourage’ people who refuse to be vaccinated, with limited success. How much longer do we make the excuse that they need such tactics? Would a requirement for proof of vaccination, or proof of medical inability to be vaccinated, plus proof of a negative test, as a condition of entry to pubs, restaurants, nightclubs, concerts, indoor sports events etc be more likely to succeed? I appreciate the difficulties in checking at the door and the opportunities for fraudsters, but it was something the government was considering in the summer and then dropped, wrongly IMO.

On a slightly more positive note, it said on the news last night that people are still coming forward for their first vaccination, and that the numbers had increased since the Omicron news, so it is a diminishing pool of unvaccinated. I think it said 300,000 in the last week, although I can’t find that referenced anywhere.

How is it possible to prove conclusively that blood clots and other health problems which some people will inevitably have are, without doubt, caused by the covid vaccine?

Coincidences happen all the time and with millions of people vaccinated it’s inevitable that some will have certain symptoms in the days following their vaccination, symptoms and illnesses which would have appeared anyway.

I’m just thinking of those people who still claim that the flu jab gave them flu, without realising that they were obviously incubating it when they had their vaccination.

Petera

nightowl

Franbern I am very frightened by people’s responses to those who don’t have the vaccine. I think we are seeing how easily people can take up extremely authoritarian positions and history tells us where this can lead. There have always been diseases with public health aspects but I am not aware that there has ever been a suggestion of compulsory vaccination ‘to protect others’ or sanctions for non-compliance. This is not a world I want to live in.

There have been, at least in other countries, serious disincentives. We lived in Norway many years ago and my daughter would not have been able to attend school without a TB vaccination.

I think the sanctions of losing one’s job and being locked down in one’s home take this a step further Petera

mumofmadboys

If we charged anti vaxxers for their medical care by the same reasoning obese people and smokers would be charged

I agree momb plus those who play sport of any kind and activities such as pot-holing, climbing, etc.

It’s a slippery slope to go down.
I and all my family have been vaccinated and boostered if age appropriate and in time all of us will have been.

But I’m not a fan at all of mandatory vaccination. What would we do? Bang on their doors and pin them down?

I don’t know the answer. Inducements maybe? at this late stage might work?

I appreciate the irony of my post

Och away, I might report you Sago for spreading misinformation.

Get your booster, stay alive, stop believing the anti-medical propaganda.

ayse Nobody wants to acknowledge an alternative point of view.

The reality is we are all part of a huge medical trial and we have zero come back if anything goes wrong.

I am by the way double vaccinated.

I am reluctant to have my third.

Riverwalk

Sago I'm sorry about your SIL and hope he makes a good recovery.

Of course it's everyone's right to refuse the vaccine - some people are hesitant and have concerns and need reassurance but that's not the case with the anti-vax rent a mob, they make crazy claims, are anti-science and spread disinformation.

Re: the anti-Vax rent-a-mob.

Just because you are anti-Vax doesn’t mean you support this action!

My daughter has been sucked into this! It’s like being indoctrinated by a cult. There are so many themes that have been stitched together to come up with a whole platform of non-linked and misquoted documents. It’s full of half truths and preys on people’s misery, insecurities and lack of trust in the establishment. This has been built on to form a coherent whole. Once someone has been sucked in it’s proving impossible to shift their mindset.

The following comments are not related to the quoted post:

I don’t think anyone should be denied medical treatment and I’m extremely concerned that vaccines are being made mandatory in Greece and maybe Austria. Many of our ailments today are caused by lifestyle eg. Type 2 diabetes, alcoholism and other drug related addictions, heart disease, bowel cancer, liver failure.

As Sago points out some people are severely affected by the vaccines. One of my grandchildren has severely disrupted periods with blood clots etc. which is being investigated.

nightowl

Franbern I am very frightened by people’s responses to those who don’t have the vaccine. I think we are seeing how easily people can take up extremely authoritarian positions and history tells us where this can lead. There have always been diseases with public health aspects but I am not aware that there has ever been a suggestion of compulsory vaccination ‘to protect others’ or sanctions for non-compliance. This is not a world I want to live in.

There have been, at least in other countries, serious disincentives. We lived in Norway many years ago and my daughter would not have been able to attend school without a TB vaccination.

I do think people should be made more aware of how much medicine and treatment costs, even more so as the NHS is slipping away from us and people should stop taking it for granted.

Whilst not agreeing with anti vaxxers in any way I am increasingly concerned as well about the authoritarian approach of Governments. So people in Greece will pay the £100 fine, then what, they still haven't had the vaccine.
I agree with momb to charge people for their care is the start of a slippery slope.

I do not think anyone should be refused treatment, however barking mad or dangerous they might be.

Meanwhile Greece is to make vaccines compulsory for all over 60’s.
Those not compliant will be fined £85 a month.

Astonishing!

When you get back WWM2 I'd be interested to hear what you think we should do - serious question.

'wartime analogies' may not apply - yet I'm still shocked by those applying 'normal' thinking to a highly abnormal situation.

Alegrias1

Not hyperbole.

Hyperbole is suggesting we charge people for medical attention and force them to have medical treatment against their will.

How does marginalising people even more and ignoring their concerns mean we are all pulling together? Specious wartime analogies don't cut it, sorry.

But I’m not am i?

Look I must get on I have roses to prune and it is a dry mild day.

I’ll rejoin later.

Alegrias1, criminalise - no, of course not - but persuade them, limit their choices, make their lives difficult, why not?