Sunak and his quiet trip to USA

I fully sympathise with the effects of staffing shortages but that wasn't what I was talking about.

Ask every single clinician and they will tell you that they are desperately short of staff. This situation has been getting worse and worse since 2010.

I wasn't thinking of the shortage of staff here; I was wondering what the attraction was for people from countries very similar to the UK as regards health facilities.

Thank you, I'm now about to research Spanish system as best I can on google. I always find it interesting that, although I've been taught (brainwashed?!!) that ours is the best in the world, I've not yet found a Country who has copied it. However, that may be my ignorance and not necessarily a fact.

Baggs

^And also by the quite abrupt loss of recruitment from the EU^

It puzzles me that EU doctors, other than as temporary exchanges or sabbaticals, would want to work in the NHS if it is really so starved of funds as is often claimed.

Oh Baggs how can you say that?

Ask every single clinician and they will tell you that they are desperately short of staff. This situation has been getting worse and worse since 2010.

They are more exhausted than I suspect every one onGN has ever been in their lives.

And also by the quite abrupt loss of recruitment from the EU

It puzzles me that EU doctors, other than as temporary exchanges or sabbaticals, would want to work in the NHS if it is really so starved of funds as is often claimed.

GagaJo

Kim19

Gagajo, this person certainly wants the NHS but only in a vastly reformed condition from start to finish. I'd be interested to know from those who've used other Countries' services in either length of depth which they preferred and why, please. I have an American friend who can't wait to get home on her annual trip to get her medical check up. She thinks we're hopelessly incompetent here. As for me, I've had excellent help and some disasters but have never used other than NHS so have no comparisons.

I've used the US system. Incredibly expensive. The Chinese. Basic but good. Pay at point of service but cheap. Swiss, with health insurance which costs more than a mortgage every month. And Spanish which was beyond fabulous.

I'm v lucky with my GP. I have a personal relationship with him because he cared for me through my cancer. But my DDs GP services is awful.

My son and DIL would concur with the Spanish system. They were so impressed.

Kim19

Gagajo, this person certainly wants the NHS but only in a vastly reformed condition from start to finish. I'd be interested to know from those who've used other Countries' services in either length of depth which they preferred and why, please. I have an American friend who can't wait to get home on her annual trip to get her medical check up. She thinks we're hopelessly incompetent here. As for me, I've had excellent help and some disasters but have never used other than NHS so have no comparisons.

I've used the US system. Incredibly expensive. The Chinese. Basic but good. Pay at point of service but cheap. Swiss, with health insurance which costs more than a mortgage every month. And Spanish which was beyond fabulous.

I'm v lucky with my GP. I have a personal relationship with him because he cared for me through my cancer. But my DDs GP services is awful.

Baggs

A German friend of mine who has lived and worked in the UK for a long time does not think the NHS compares favourably with the German system. One of her points is that not having to pay "up-front" via national insurance sometimes so that you're aware of the cost makes Brits think lazily about their health.

She also thinks our system is not joined up enough. We both have experience through work that this is so and often for the people who need the joined-upness the most. Whatever bureaucracy we have seems to put barriers in place rather than 'enablement'.

Re the US system, admittedly anecdotally via relations and friends there, the system is actually very good if you can afford good health insurance. That, I agree, is the stumbling block that most people are aware of.

Anyway, countries in Europe with systems more equivalent to ours (i.e. mostly free at the point of contact but financed more diversely) are probably worth looking at for ideas that might improve outcomes in the UK, in my view.

Totally agree. My family in Germany get much quicker care, results of scans and blood results,usually given to patient to take direct to GP, Consultant usually seen within a week.Surgery quicker, varicose veins stripped without having to jump through hoops to get them done, and yes they can be debilitating, can lead to massive ciculatory problems. State and paid for health insurance. Those that can’t pay get state help. So no one goes without. We will have to do something.

Perhaps it should be made clear that 'healthcare bosses' are heads of private medical enterprises. I don't think they'd be giving him advice on the treatment of covid...

The Tories are selling the NHS

We were warned

Baggs

^Sorry, baggs. I don't understand how the way the health care is financed affects outcomes. Can you explain.^

Not easily. My comment is based on what my German friend says. She thinks having to pay up front for some (minor) things focusses people's minds so they don't pester health services with things they could deal with themselves. Given how often we are hearing pleas to Save the NHS from being overwhelmed we need something.

I'm not sure that rationing care (even for minor things) by ability to pay is quite the way to go.

But then, I'm firmly of the view that the NHS is being overwhelmed at the moment because it has been kept short of funds.

And also by the quite abrupt loss of recruitment from the EU (which clearly was unforeseen on the part of the last two governments; Project Fear and all that...) without a real drive to train our own professional NHS staff to compensate. With better planning we might have been in a better position personnel wise. Figures given for current vacancies range from 98 to 100,000. Even the lower figure is crucial now.

Sorry, baggs. I don't understand how the way the health care is financed affects outcomes. Can you explain.

Not easily. My comment is based on what my German friend says. She thinks having to pay up front for some (minor) things focusses people's minds so they don't pester health services with things they could deal with themselves. Given how often we are hearing pleas to Save the NHS from being overwhelmed we need something.

I just keep my fingers crossed that we will follow the model of another country who is making it work successfully for them, and that we can keep ours.
With or without the GP surgeries as we (used to) know them if they are a “stand alone” business entity.
In these times no one is advised to keep a business running if it has not got incomings higher than outgoings.
I can only put forward a simple opinion as I am not a very knowledgeable person, but am interested in people’s posts who know more.

Gagajo, this person certainly wants the NHS but only in a vastly reformed condition from start to finish. I'd be interested to know from those who've used other Countries' services in either length of depth which they preferred and why, please. I have an American friend who can't wait to get home on her annual trip to get her medical check up. She thinks we're hopelessly incompetent here. As for me, I've had excellent help and some disasters but have never used other than NHS so have no comparisons.

Peasblossom

“were told he is meeting health providers”

Umm didn’t they actually say tech and business”.

That was the second message.

“were told he is meeting health providers”

Umm didn’t they actually say tech and business”.

TillyTrotter

Does anyone have the stats to hand that show how many other countries run a free health system similar to ours in the U.K. please?

Have a look at Canada and most if not all the European countries.

If we are going to sell off the NHS then I think the European model is way and above preferable to the USA model.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2 as you have absolutely no idea what discussions took place your OP is at best guesswork or at its worst pure whataboutery.

The world is still firmly in the grip of a pandemic, and quiet frankly I would be more surprised if government officials were not having meetings with other countries health care providers.

Why on Earth would the U.K. chancellor meet health providers?

No lessons to be learned from the USA over the pandemic I would have thought, and who would be the right person to do so in any case?

The Health minister would be the right government bod.

Sorry Whitewavemark2 you have no idea why Mr.Sunak was in the USA, you have no idea who he met or why.

I’m afraid I do. Sunak’s office advised the media when asked, as they like me suggested he was away for a jolly, and were told no he is meeting health providers in California.

GrannyGravy13

I hope you are including the Labour Governments of Mr.Blair and Mr.Brown in your post MaizieD they introduced PFI contracts which have in most circumstances been a disaster.

PFI contracts have nothing to do with clinical care, GG13. That is not what this thread is about.

Anyway, countries in Europe with systems more equivalent to ours (i.e. mostly free at the point of contact but financed more diversely) are probably worth looking at for ideas that might improve outcomes in the UK, in my view.

Sorry, baggs. I don't understand how the way the health care is financed affects outcomes. Can you explain.

At the moment our NHS is being deliberately kept short of money, and has been for the past decade.. There is absolutely no valid economic reason why this should be so.

Totally agree Baggs the NHS in 2021 is so far removed from its inception. Medicine, surgery, IVF etc have moved on in leaps and bounds something Mr.Bevan in all probability could not have foreseen.

It will take a brave Government, whoever they are to truly put in place the reforms the NHS is so badly in need of.

A German friend of mine who has lived and worked in the UK for a long time does not think the NHS compares favourably with the German system. One of her points is that not having to pay "up-front" via national insurance sometimes so that you're aware of the cost makes Brits think lazily about their health.

She also thinks our system is not joined up enough. We both have experience through work that this is so and often for the people who need the joined-upness the most. Whatever bureaucracy we have seems to put barriers in place rather than 'enablement'.

Re the US system, admittedly anecdotally via relations and friends there, the system is actually very good if you can afford good health insurance. That, I agree, is the stumbling block that most people are aware of.

Anyway, countries in Europe with systems more equivalent to ours (i.e. mostly free at the point of contact but financed more diversely) are probably worth looking at for ideas that might improve outcomes in the UK, in my view.

GrannyGravy13

I hope you are including the Labour Governments of Mr.Blair and Mr.Brown in your post MaizieD they introduced PFI contracts which have in most circumstances been a disaster.

We are also still paying over the odds for them
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/12/nhs-hospital-trusts-to-pay-out-further-55bn-under-pfi-scheme

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2 as you have absolutely no idea what discussions took place your OP is at best guesswork or at its worst pure whataboutery.

The world is still firmly in the grip of a pandemic, and quiet frankly I would be more surprised if government officials were not having meetings with other countries health care providers.

Why on Earth would the U.K. chancellor meet health providers?

No lessons to be learned from the USA over the pandemic I would have thought, and who would be the right person to do so in any case?

The Health minister would be the right government bod.

Sorry Whitewavemark2 you have no idea why Mr.Sunak was in the USA, you have no idea who he met or why.

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2 as you have absolutely no idea what discussions took place your OP is at best guesswork or at its worst pure whataboutery.

The world is still firmly in the grip of a pandemic, and quiet frankly I would be more surprised if government officials were not having meetings with other countries health care providers.

Why on Earth would the U.K. chancellor meet health providers?

No lessons to be learned from the USA over the pandemic I would have thought, and who would be the right person to do so in any case?

The Health minister would be the right government bod.

eazybee we have a very close friend who is a recently retired GP, Mr.Blair is to blame for their contracts.

GP’s have always been a separate entity from the NHS which is why they are beginning to sell their practices to pharma/big businesses.