So far, 2022 is not a good year to be an entitled white man!

Yes so was I, I think it is feasible to consider that whilst the OP mooted three white men, who undisputedly have displayed exactly what she accuses them of and seemingly are getting their comeuppance, well in the case of Djokavic, at any rate, it remains to be seen what the fate of the others will be. Nevertheless there is entitlement acted out in many corners of the globe which is just ongoing. To subjugate citizens, be they women, different ethnicities, religions whatever, displays on the part of a ruling elite a sense of entitlement in that they can have such power over their own people, mere chess pieces to be moved around at will. Clearly the despots who wield the power, haven't met their own Waterloos yet, and probably won't anytime soon sadly.

Terribull Thank you for your last post. It's always good to hear how some people make such a success of their lives.

TerriBull

"So far there haven't been any displays of entitlement by other races to date" phew that's a relief I was rather under the impression there was a shed load of injustices going on around the globe, I expect the women of Afghanistan will be relieved to know that male entitlement in their country hasn't been a thing since the beginning of the year.

I was talking about this year - currently we're 19 days in.

Thank you for your magnanimous response Alegrias.

I would add that of course black lives matter, every time I hear about a young person's life lost on the streets through a stabbing, that's the first thought that crosses my mind. On a personal level I have a very close black friend who I met at work in the late '70s, we've seen each other through ups and downs of broken marriages, child rearing. She is one of my oldest and dearest friends, the first black person I met and came to know and who gave me as a white person an insight into how different life was for a black girl growing up in south London when the odds were stacked against her. She is by far the most gutsy and tenacious of any other friend I have and sharing an office together for several years, I knew right from the start we had an affinity that took us beyond the workplace. She had a horribly abusive childhood and a start in life that was so hard it would have floored most people. When I abandoned a working life to become a stay at home mother, she'd had her children before me and had returned to the workplace and was busy climbing the corporate ladder which she did very successfully, she wouldn't let anything stand in her way. A while ago she set up her own company. Blessed with a wicked sense of humour, she would often recount how in her words "I sound very white on the phone and sometimes if I meet someone for the first time in a work place scenario they get a bit of shock!" going on to recount how one guy actually said to her on their first meeting "you're very er......." to which she responded with every adjective under the sun "tall, loud, feisty, amazing, quirky, infectious, clever" leaving the most obvious hanging in the air and him visibly squirming like a fish on a hook stuttering away like an idiot. Like Sidney Poiter, she refusesd to be defined by the colour of her skin, because in her words "It's part of me but I'm not one dimensional" She took herself away from South London when her marriage broke up to raise her children in a quintessentially English village in Hampshire, because she worried about her boys being drawn into gangs once they hit their teens and south London can be dangerous place for black boys. When they moved they were the only black family there. Whilst she has in her life undoubtedly suffered from racism, particularly when married to her first husband being pulled over by the police umpteen times because at the time, if you were black driving a smart car then it was probably stolen. Nevertheless she has also told me, having been abandoned by her mother and step father, the latter regarding her as a cuckoo in the nest. With ongoing maintenance battles with her ex husband who mostly as she commented provided Jack Shit, whilst she single handedly provided for the family, the love and support she has received in life has overwhelmingly come from white people. We discussed that REL book when it first came out, she doesn't wholly buy into the main thrust of Ms Eddo Lodge beef and feels it presents a single faceted argument about being black which she doesn't embrace. My friend is of the opinion, possibly displaying attitudes of her age demographic, we are both in our 60s, and has spent much time mentoring in the workplace, that younger people of all ethnicities are the perennial victims right now and in her words, "if you behave like a victim" then you will be treated like one and sometimes you have to rise above that as I have done" but she is possibly through a difficult upbringing made of sterner stuff.

Okey doke.

I know nothing about Venn except he came up with the idea for Venn Diagrams. So whether he was white, black or sky blue pink, it's his work that counts. Not his background.

I have read most of the posts on this thread and very interesting I do think by posting entitled white man is a bit provocative and the poster could have found some better wording.

I am left wondering if my neighbours who are of black origin
have somehow got it into their heads that I am an entitled white woman if in fact that actually exists. My reason being that for 5 years every Christmas morning one of the family brings me a gift and as it was them that started I made sure to have a gift ready to give in return. I did not have them knock with any gift although mine was ready for them. Also the neighbour is divorced and her previous husband always goes to them on Christmas Day he lived at the house previously and he too knows me and will always knock and wish Happy Christmas. He is white. No sign of him either.
I had been unwell so did not go to their house to leave my gift. Anyway have not seen them since beginning of New Year only seen them when they leave for work. So perhaps they have got me down as an Entitled white woman and are putting a stop to my gifts.
Joking aside I never speak to many neighbours have made no remarks about them to anyone and feel a bit puzzled about their behaviour. As for the gifts I always accepted theirs and thanked them for thinking of me, although they always gave me wine and chocolates. I do not drink and always passed it on to someone else so will not miss it just do not know what was wrong with them.

Maybe we don't!

Given Venn was a 19th century mathematician, and being of his time, almost certainly a white entitled man, do we need to add yet another, albeit dead white man's analysis into the fray.

And.. "if you think all lives matter"........don't try and suggest what I think.

I was merely trying to point out that this kind of generalising is not a good thing, IMO. It encourages further division in society. I can assure you that there are many black, Asian and other minorities in and around my area and they would certainly not feel that their white counterparts are privileged next to themselves.

No, some people are entitled, white and men. Some entitled people are women. Some white people are grateful for what they have.

Maybe we need a Venn diagram...?

So it is a privilege to be 'white'. Disagree!

maddyone

Excellent analysis TerriBull.

Excellent analysis if you think "all lives matter" is a really clever riposte to BLM.

Otherwise, not so much.

Pammie1

Just had a rethink. Given the fact that the privilege displayed by those mentioned in the OP is mostly rooted in wealth, singling them out as white may simply be irrelevant rather than racist.

Yes, the white men mentioned are hardly representative.

"So far there haven't been any displays of entitlement by other races to date" phew that's a relief I was rather under the impression there was a shed load of injustices going on around the globe, I expect the women of Afghanistan will be relieved to know that male entitlement in their country hasn't been a thing since the beginning of the year.

Just had a rethink. Given the fact that the privilege displayed by those mentioned in the OP is mostly rooted in wealth, singling them out as white may simply be irrelevant rather than racist.

Gwyneth

No you didn’t say that but by specifically listing four white men the implication for me was that only white men are entitled. Whereas a sense of entitlement extends across the spectrum. I can think of both men and women (white and non white) who display a sense of entitlement, think they can do what they like regardless and are particularly arrogant.

Actually, she only listed three, a minor point maybe but a fact. I'm being pedantic here but it's a tad irritating when people don't get their facts right. The fourth, Prince Harry, was mentioned by me.

Also GillT57 was referring to this year and as far as I'm aware there haven't been any displays of entitlement by other races to date. So her description was accurate.

Honestly, I don't think the OP is racist, as the people concerned are in no way victims of their background or colour. Neither is being white shorthand for any kind of discrimination.

I am not someone who excuses racism even if it is accidental, but I don't see it in the OP. I think that in this case the accusations of racism are akin to those who feel that there are 'too many' black people in adverts, or (as pointed out upthread) on the lines of 'all lives matter'. People are so used to seeing white people as untouchable that they are triggered when they see any generalisations about them, forgetting that white people don't need protection from generalisations on the grounds of race. As individuals, many white people need protection on the grounds of poverty, lack of opportunity, lack of education and many other things, but they don't need protection from systemic racism.

Excellent analysis TerriBull.

Exactly Doodledog. White privilege is totally about the casual racism that black people may and do encounter in their day to day lives.

I'm well aware of the thrust of Renee Eddo-Lodge's "Why I'm no longer talking to white people about race" In the context of putting a link to an extract from that, I can only think that the insertion of "white" in the heading is a subliminal nod to the culture wars that is prevalent at the moment and then supported by a here "read this" and then maybe you'll understand white privilege" somewhat patronising. There is an ambiguity in the opening title of this thread that could be taken several ways and indeed it has.

Undoubtedly the writer, REL, makes some really salient points in that book and the title itself has a grab the attention effect. but she says "she stopped talking to white people because she can't emotionally exhaust herself trying to get her message across. In her experience they tend to glaze over, become bored or simply outraged in indignation" Maybe in making her case she lays black slavery firmly on the shoulders of all white people, ignoring the fact that most of the working white population at that point in history, were practically enslaved themselves and many just one step away from the workhouse, There was also no mention of the part Black Africans and North Africans played.

We all know that America in particular is divided along the have and the have nots, that doesn't always equate to whites being the haves, some of the poorest people are the white communities in the Appalachians, dirt poor and have been since they settled. On the other hand, not all black people are living a hand to mouth existence. Greyson Perry visited Atlanta in his recent tv programme which is home to a substantial number of black millionaires. That's not to say that black people still get a raw deal particularly at the hands of the police.

I wonder how a book titled "Why I'm no longer talking to the Pakistani community about sexual abuse of white girls" would have been received. I'm not sure it could have even been considered for publication, because the matter was deemed such a hot potato for so long by a police force, constrained by political correctness that they wouldn't even contemplate supporting the victims. In any case, how unfair would that title be to demonise a whole community by placing them between such narrow parameters, after all it was the admirable lawyer a Pakistani man, Nazir Afzal who fought tooth and nail for those young women.

Yes it's a fact that Boris Johnson, Prince Andrew and Djokavic are all white men who have behaved appallingly. Globally though there will be millions of PEOPLE of all races and ethnicities who display reprehensible attitudes to their fellow human being, so with that in mind, picking those three, who all happen to be white just seems a bit random and provocative.

For example, one of the most shocking articles I read recently, was that of the young migrants working on the Qatar Stadium are developing kidney failure due to their working in unbearable heat without breaks or sufficient water, dark skinned men enslaved by other very privileged dark skinned men.

Or we could give a thought to the Chinese leadership, who have gone the full Adolf Hitler in putting 12 million of their citizens in concentration camps.

I think there needs to be more nuanced consideration when attributing negative news stories to one particular ethnicity.

Very good posts Pammie.

I perceive ‘white privilege’ to mean that white people can go about their daily lives without having to worry about how their ethnicity or the colour of their skin will impact them. That’s why I fail to see how the fact that all of the men in the OP’s post are white is relevant. I’m sure someone will be along soon to educate me.
Exactly.

I do think it's an unfortunate term, as many people think it means 'privilege' in the sense of having a 'silver spoon', when it doesn't. I am on a lot of local history sites, and get so fed up when every time there is a photo of Victorian poverty someone comes along with a 'sarcastic comment about 'white privilege', totally missing the point.

love0c

Was exactly is a 'privileged white man'? Or more importantly, what are the people using it meaning? White and rich? If so, then if you are black and rich, you are also privileged?

I perceive ‘white privilege’ to mean that white people can go about their daily lives without having to worry about how their ethnicity or the colour of their skin will impact them. That’s why I fail to see how the fact that all of the men in the OP’s post are white is relevant. I’m sure someone will be along soon to educate me.

janeainsworth

Pammie I noticed you left Boris out of your diatribe. Was there a reason for that?

It is not racist to say that Boris, Prince Andrew and Novak Djokovic are white. It’s a statement of fact.

If course it would be silly to pretend that non-white men, or women for that matter, never do anything corrupt, or commit crimes, or try to evade regulations that are there for the common good.
But these particular men were all white, and it’s a simple descriptor, and that’s all.

Not particularly - when I posted I was thinking more about the controversy surrounding the entitled behaviour of Djokovic in particular and Prince Andrew’s ludicrous attempts to distance himself from the issues surrounding his association with Epstein.

I do consider the OP title to be racist - it’s OK to single out white men for this purpose, but had the post said black instead of white there would have been uproar. The behaviour of the people singled out has absolutely nothing to do with race and more to do with the entitled behaviour of the rich and powerful. That was all.

The language used is the problem. I actually agree that some people have started off the year in a very entitled way. BJ, Djokovic, Prince Andrew, and now it appears Prince Harry too, so the description of these people is not wrong but when the element of race is introduced it becomes problematic. To be honest, it would never have occurred to me to describe these people as white, even though they are white. I think I might have entitled the thread as Some well known people are having a very bad start to the year. Because they are. No need to bring race into it.

Was exactly is a 'privileged white man'? Or more importantly, what are the people using it meaning? White and rich? If so, then if you are black and rich, you are also privileged?