Russian massing on the Ukrainian border

Thank you Bodach

I think people should be more careful in their posts

I wholeheartedly agree, particularly when such patently wrong posts remain on the internet.

I am not piling on but I am astonished at your defence of such posts.

Whitewavemark2

What I’m talking about is the tendency to troll. If you are taking part in a reasonable debate or discussion then I absolutely support you, but not when it reduces to unpleasantness. The point that should be remembered that this has happened in the past and I think people should be more careful in their posts.

There is no trolling on here, Whitewave

Well-known posters are trying to rebut falsehoods.

If the person posting falsehoods about this country, about NATO and about the EU will not consider that they might be wrong, then other posters will persist in correcting that misinformation.

It is dangerous rubbish.
Someone posting falsehoods about vaccines etc would soon have their posts deleted.

Excellent post Bodach. Explains everything perfectly.

Whitewavemark2
You can call it a pile on if you want, I call it it counteracting lies that are being told about my country by someone resident in Switzerland.

Thank you for your input Bodach Much appreciated.

Whitewavemark2 what do you suggest?

Should we just ignore/gaslight inaccuracies?

I always try to be polite, I have not been rude towards anyone on this thread.

Bodach excellent post

GrannyGravy13

Pointing out inaccuracies is not a pile on.

I think you know what I mean.

Pointing out inaccuracies is not a pile on.

Dear Kali2, I have just come across this thread, and I fear that your obviously well-entrenched views on the UK’s military relationships with other European countries bear little relationship with reality. I won’t waste my time (and yours) by repeating what so many other posters have tried to convey to you over the past few pages about individual countries’ membership of NATO, as compared to the military aspirations of the EU bloc – because you simply won’t accept it. For my (many) sins over the years, I held fairly senior positions in the UK’s Ministry of Defence and at NATO headquarters, including membership of various committees dealing with NATO/EU matters. The perennial underlying theme of that relationship was that the French were both resentful of the US’s overwhelming military pre-eminence in NATO, and suspicious that the US might not – if and when the Russian ‘balloon went up’ in Europe – fulfil its collective defence obligations under Article 5 of the Treaty. Hence, France was always pushing the case for a vastly expanded “EU Army” organisation, run (inevitably) from Brussels, but (naturally) dominated by France. All the other European nations who were NATO members were in no doubt whatsoever that our ultimate salvation against a major Russian military threat lay with NATO, but (for appearances sake) were content to let France pursue its vanity project, and pay lip service to increased EU military integration, knowing well that it was not going to happen outside the NATO fold.

If, as you say, Brexit has resulted in the UK being divorced from European military ties, how does that square with the fact that, since 2018, French forces engaged in counter-terrorist operations in Mali have been supported by three RAF Chinook heavy-lift helicopters and several hundred personnel? On a larger scale, what about the ongoing ‘Combined Joint Expeditionary Force’ agreement between the UK and France? Looking at Northern Europe, how come the UK heads the ‘Joint Expeditionary Force’ (JEF) comprising units from Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden, which took part in a major exercise recently? The JEF has been called a “force of friends, filling a hole in the security architecture of northern Europe between a national force and a NATO force.”

I could go on, but it’s very clear that the only thing the UK has forfeited militarily through Brexit is being dragged unwillingly into the bureaucratic (and toothless) nightmare that has always been the EU integrated military structure chimera. In this present potential crisis, we stand with the US and our fellow European members of NATO.
Hope you enjoyed Cabaret!

What I’m talking about is the tendency to troll. If you are taking part in a reasonable debate or discussion then I absolutely support you, but not when it reduces to unpleasantness. The point that should be remembered that this has happened in the past and I think people should be more careful in their posts.

Oh come on Whitewave, I think I am entitled to an explanation when I'm clearly accused of inaccurate comments I didn't make, unless you can show me differently. With respect, pots and kettles does come to mind .

Just going to pour a ?
Or two.

Anyway, I can recommend today's Global Questions with Zienab Badawi to give a perspective on this from Ukraine.

Callistemon21

Whitewavemark2

I’m not liking the silly pile on to kali.

It really is puerile.

Just address the issue for heavens sake and behave like adults!

You joined in with the bewilderment, Whitewave.

The problem is that a refusal to consider that facts may be wrong and a refusal to consider that other posters' facts may be correct results in frustration in the face such intransigence.

BYOB - bring your own bottle - a pre-requisite of parties these days apparently.

But it wasn’t directed at kali for heavens sake! It wasn’t directed any any one poster. That is not how I function I’m afraid.

Arguing facts is acceptable, piling in isn’t, and I’ve seen it too often to feel comfortable with the silly behaviour.

And thank you for the explanation, I really should have known???

Whitewavemark2

I’m not liking the silly pile on to kali.

It really is puerile.

Just address the issue for heavens sake and behave like adults!

You joined in with the bewilderment, Whitewave.

The problem is that a refusal to consider that facts may be wrong and a refusal to consider that other posters' facts may be correct results in frustration in the face such intransigence.

BYOB - bring your own bottle - a pre-requisite of parties these days apparently.

I’m not liking the silly pile on to kali.

It really is puerile.

Just address the issue for heavens sake and behave like adults!

Callistemon21

Whitewavemark2

I’m way ahead of all of you, into my second bottle trying to deaden my bruised head from the wall

Is it BYOB, Whitewave?

Don’t know what that means?

Kali2, I've re read my post and any relevance to geography has escaped me! I don't think I made any reference to where anywhere was or their position to Ukraine or anywhere else come to that, so I simply don't know what you mean, can you explain? MS, I am baffled, understandably so I think! 90 tons of lethal aid has arrived from the US to Ukraine, good or bad? not too sure. UK aid has also arrived. Eeek!

Maybe it’s a Swiss thing and we haven’t heard of it ?

Jaberwok how's your head?

Jaberwok
Your probably as confused as I am to the reference to Geography. Can anyone help with that one. Answers on a postcard please ?

Enjoy. I am off to Cabaret and dinner with friends, with a good bottle.

Jaberwork- perhaps like Raab, geography is not your forte.

I'm tee total but the sheer lunacy, and pigheaded intransigence in refusing to admit that they've gone completely OTT with completely inaccurate information, may just inspire me to get down to the offy and grab a bottle.

Lincslass

news.sky.com/story/ukraine-crisis-moscow-accepts-uk-talks-invite-amid-fears-russian-invasion-is-imminent-12522361.

Let’s hope Ben Wallace is successful.

Kali2, I cannot for the life of me understand why you think that because we've left the EU that our relationship regarding our NATO membership has altered as it simply hasn't.These two organisations have nothing to do with each other as each country joins NATO as individuals not collectively, making it the case that each individual country decides for itself how it will react and what action to take. Tony Blair didn't have to get permission from the EU to invade Iraq. We co founded NATO in 1949 along with 11 other individual nations,11 has swollen to 30, some in the EU others not. Unlike 1940 when we were on our own in every sense of the phrase, we are no more on our own now than we were at the offset in 1949, as is borne out by our valued contribution to various recent exercises both on land and at sea in conjunction with other NATO countries. I assure you we are not on our own, the,US has sent massive arms contributions, Scandinavian countries are beefing up their defenses. Some EU countries are hamstrung by their reliance on Russian oil and gas supplies,but that doesn't affect our relationship with NATO which hasn't altered in 72 years and won't be any time soon.