Russian massing on the Ukrainian border

Kali2

This is not what I said. Did you take the time to read the links I posted. The UK was part of NATO as a member of the European Community- it is no longer. Blaire also went to war without the approval of the rest of Europe. Of course the two are separate- but with very strong links, which have changed very significantly since Brexit.

The U.K. was a founder member of NATO, long before the U.K. joined the EEC which later became the EU. Leaving the EU has nothing to do with being in NATO.

The U.K is one of only a handful of Countries to meet its NATO contribution to its Defence budget

.

This is not what I said. Did you take the time to read the links I posted. The UK was part of NATO as a member of the European Community- it is no longer. Blaire also went to war without the approval of the rest of Europe. Of course the two are separate- but with very strong links, which have changed very significantly since Brexit.

Our position in NATO was not changed by Brexit, how could it be? they are two totally different arrangements. You don't have to be in the EU to be a member of NATO.

“and that the UK is not in a firm and solid relationship with the rest of Europe, ^even within NATO^”. Where is your evidence for the last part of that statement please?

*accounts should be accountants

Whitewavemark2

GrannyGravy13

For once I find myself in total agreement with Mr. Starmer.

? I do think tackling the illicit money is a good and relatively easy start.

An office of highly qualified forensic accounts would be a good starting point.

GrannyGravy13

For once I find myself in total agreement with Mr. Starmer.

? I do think tackling the illicit money is a good and relatively easy start.

For once I find myself in total agreement with Mr. Starmer.

Callistemon21

Kali2

Indeed WWmk2- but we are divided. The UK made sure of that.

EU and NATO are not the same thing.

See my post above.

Please, I am fully aware of this. Did you read the articles I posted? The UKs position with relation to both of the above was changed due to Brexit- and has never been properly re-established.

We must not play Putin's 'game' - yes, he was behind Brexit to achieve maximum division (divide and rule)- and yet. Due to reliance on oil for so many countries on Russia, at a time when prices are soaring and putting individuals and businesses, and the economy of many countries, in serious difficulties, it is much easier to say than to do.

But mainly, the EU and others are very conscious of the failability of the MAD concept in the current situation, combined with other serious financial and economic factors due partly to Covid.

Whatever you think, it is a VERY serious situation- and going in all guns blazing is VERY dangerous. Just don't know what the answer is, for sure.

Final one.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202201/medium-290361-815fc31d-23ff-43b8-b068-23006775bd9a.jpeg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202201/medium-917548-c6e26bec-afaf-498d-b949-c5871f0e678d.jpeg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202201/medium-34745-b2b8f2b1-6f87-4533-b4c0-af75bcca3571.jpeg

Telegraph article dated 21/01/22 by leader of the opposition

This is what we absolutely mustn’t do and play Putins game.

He wants division in order to weaken the bond between the EU and others and succeed in his end game.

grandtanteJE65

Callistemon21

What worries me more, I think, is that the EU has been a party to much of this (no pun intended) but is now ignoring the threat apart from warning Russia.

British troops and anti-tank weapons have been sent to Ukraine, training their troops.

We only hear what the media want us to hear ie partygate, Cummingsville.

Surprised you think the EU is ignoring the threat. This is not the impression we are getting in Denmark. The German Foreign Minister has been in Russia for talks with the Russian Government, the EU Parliament is holding meetings solely to discuss steps and Macron has made it clear he is concerned too.

Nato has sent two Dutch warships to the Baltic, Denmark one of her own frigates and Sweden is increasing her defence of Gotland.

I don't know how any of this contitues ignoring a situation.

Yes you are right. France and Spain are very vocal as well.

Callistemon21

What worries me more, I think, is that the EU has been a party to much of this (no pun intended) but is now ignoring the threat apart from warning Russia.

British troops and anti-tank weapons have been sent to Ukraine, training their troops.

We only hear what the media want us to hear ie partygate, Cummingsville.

Surprised you think the EU is ignoring the threat. This is not the impression we are getting in Denmark. The German Foreign Minister has been in Russia for talks with the Russian Government, the EU Parliament is holding meetings solely to discuss steps and Macron has made it clear he is concerned too.

Nato has sent two Dutch warships to the Baltic, Denmark one of her own frigates and Sweden is increasing her defence of Gotland.

I don't know how any of this contitues ignoring a situation.

Jaberwok

Yes you're right, I should have said most EU countries are NATO members, six are not. Main players however are but their reliance on Russia makes them virtually impotent particularly Germany.

I think it is overegging the pudding to say that Germany is virtually impotent.

Germany does have choices and it has been offered help in these choices.

Yes you're right, I should have said most EU countries are NATO members, six are not. Main players however are but their reliance on Russia makes them virtually impotent particularly Germany.

Kali2

Indeed WWmk2- but we are divided. The UK made sure of that.

EU and NATO are not the same thing.

See my post above.

Whitewavemark2

Now is not the time to be divided.

Putin has worked hard for this to happen in Europe and looks as if he is succeeding.

We are cleverer than that ( or should be).

We should use soft power to strike back. We have the resources and the willingness from both USA and Europe.

Remember divided we fall.

Don’t be a fool and play Putins he game

?

But this is where the cracks start to show as not all EU states are members of NATO.

There are thirty countries that belong to NATO, and the countries inside the EU are all members as well as the UK. Owing to their reliance on Russia for gas and oil they are indeed toothless tigers and Putin knows it which emboldens him to threaten and maybe even attack neighbouring countries who were once part of the Soviet block, and beyond, who knows. Being so dependent on a potential enemy for vital supplies was nothing short of madness in the first place and has sadly put Europe in a very difficult and dangerous position . Upset Russia = pipeline disruption, gas and oil.

Jaberwok

Militarily we are not isolated and we do not stand alone. We are, unlike some, fully paid up important members of NATO which most importantly and obviously includes the USA When it comes to military matters the EU is sadly lacking and, as in Bosnia, more hindrance than help with their endless bickering about who runs what, how and where, and frankly we are better off without them. There is no question of us going it alone with the U.S watching from the sidelines. As for the EU, the gas pipeline is more important than Ukraine and left to them Russia will be appeased which will be fine for a while until perhaps Poland is threatened or Hungary, when, like Hitler, Putin will eventually have to be faced.

Muddling two entities.

European countries are sovereign states and choose whether to belong to NATO or not. The EU has nothing to do with that decision. NATO is not within its sphere of influence.

Militarily we are not isolated and we do not stand alone. We are, unlike some, fully paid up important members of NATO which most importantly and obviously includes the USA When it comes to military matters the EU is sadly lacking and, as in Bosnia, more hindrance than help with their endless bickering about who runs what, how and where, and frankly we are better off without them. There is no question of us going it alone with the U.S watching from the sidelines. As for the EU, the gas pipeline is more important than Ukraine and left to them Russia will be appeased which will be fine for a while until perhaps Poland is threatened or Hungary, when, like Hitler, Putin will eventually have to be faced.

Urmstongran

Yes apples and pears WWmk2 but annoyingly the UK weren’t allowed to fly over German airspace to reach the Ukraine.

Quite a stance for a purely trading bloc.

No you are getting sovereignty muddled with a free Trade union.

Germany receives 32% of its gas from Russia, as well as other vital commodities like oil.

This is the problem. The USA has offered to step up supply to Germany but it would mean building the infrastructure needed.

However, this reliance. On Russia for various commodities has been warned about for some time, and perhaps it is time that those in the west began to secure alternatives.

GrannyGravy13

Kali2

Flag waving will not alter this at all.

Well you are certainly waving the EU flag

Absolutely NOT! NOT in any way, shape or form.

I will put my hands up here- I am and have always been a pacifist and a proud member of CND- and always been fully aware that the concept of MAD would only work until mad men get involved, and prepared to try it for their psychopathic egos.

Yes Whitewavemk2- and this makes him VERY dangerous indeed. He knows that, and will use it. And the reason he played a sick game behind the Brexit campaign- as a divided Europe suits his aims perfectly, with the UK cut off (and of their own accord too).

Yes apples and pears WWmk2 but annoyingly the UK weren’t allowed to fly over German airspace to reach the Ukraine.

Quite a stance for a purely trading bloc.