Russian massing on the Ukrainian border

Growstuff because on BBC news this morning they said they were still aiming to join NATO. So are they or aren't they?

westendgirl

"Stoical Ukrainians worn down by constant rattle of western anxiety ";headline in ~Times today for an article in which Ukrainians say there is more panic abroad than there.

That's what some foreign media sources have been saying for a few days. It couldn't be that some governments are trying to distract their citizens from domestic matter, could it?

AGAA4

The Ukraine is not compromising and still insists on joining NATO as it has every right to do.
Some believe Putin is posturing but time will tell.

Well, that's strange because Ukraine's ambassador to the UK has said that the country is willing to drop the bid.

www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-could-drop-nato-bid-avoid-war-ambassador-tells-bbc-2022-02-14/

How come you know differently AGAA4 and Jaberwok?

Exactly, time will tell and all we can do is wait, watch and stay focussed.

The Ukraine is not compromising and still insists on joining NATO as it has every right to do.
Some believe Putin is posturing but time will tell.

"Stoical Ukrainians worn down by constant rattle of western anxiety ";headline in ~Times today for an article in which Ukrainians say there is more panic abroad than there.

Pretty sterling work by the uk tbh, standing up to a bully is the only way, not slithering and sliding like other countries.

Oh my goodness karmalady, what happened to your uncle is truly dreadful . Of course that massacre was originally attributed to the Nazis until it was later proved to have been the work of Stalin. As history tells us again and again Russian rulers are ruthless and Putin is no different. We need to be very very wary when dealing with Russia and China, but without appearing to be weak. Not easy!

growstuff

Urmstongran

Well, well ...
EU hands Britain post-Brexit olive branch – an offer to lead new security council
European leaders impressed with Westminster’s handling of Ukraine crisis set to propose leadership of new body and put tensions behind them.

Ironic, isn't it?

The EU doesn't even have a "security council" yet!

However, when Merkel suggested something of the sort, to exist alongside NATO, Brexiters got all hot under the collar and accused Germany of wanting a "European Army".

No idea where you got the idea European leaders are impressed with Westminster. Was it in the Daily Unicorn?

Bizarre indeed- the red herring of a European Army was one of the many Brexit ... red herrings!

As for European leaders, and people, being impressed with Westminster, Johnson and Truss- this is the most ridiculous statement made in a long time. Other European leaders, and people, are seriously concerned about Johnson, Truss and Wallace's behaviour- and the Press and TV all over Europe expresses this very clearly, a mix of great concern and sheer hilarity, sarcasm and cynism!

Interesting Urmstongran and MerylStreep

Urmstongran

Well, well ...
EU hands Britain post-Brexit olive branch – an offer to lead new security council
European leaders impressed with Westminster’s handling of Ukraine crisis set to propose leadership of new body and put tensions behind them.

I was surprised ( not) to see who opposed the idea, were you?
I’m assuming you weren’t surprised.

Whitewavemark2

Both Germany and France are continuing with diplomacy. Both travelling to the area this week.

Any idea what Johnson is doing?

I see that Ukraine has hinted that it would drop its bid to join NATO in order to avert war.

The compromises are beginning to appear.

Sensible.

Mr.Johnson is in Scotland today, the Scottish parliament has agreed with Westminster to open two new Green Free Ports in Scotland.

Tomorrow he is going to Kyiv and other Eastern European Capitals.

(Source, ITV News this morning)

Both Germany and France are continuing with diplomacy. Both travelling to the area this week.

Any idea what Johnson is doing?

I see that Ukraine has hinted that it would drop its bid to join NATO in order to avert war.

The compromises are beginning to appear.

Sensible.

Urmstongran

Well, well ...
EU hands Britain post-Brexit olive branch – an offer to lead new security council
European leaders impressed with Westminster’s handling of Ukraine crisis set to propose leadership of new body and put tensions behind them.

Ironic, isn't it?

The EU doesn't even have a "security council" yet!

However, when Merkel suggested something of the sort, to exist alongside NATO, Brexiters got all hot under the collar and accused Germany of wanting a "European Army".

No idea where you got the idea European leaders are impressed with Westminster. Was it in the Daily Unicorn?

Interesting Twitter thread from Tom Tugendhat:

In 1945 the Soviet Union and her allies brought to justice those who had caused so much suffering to millions of their compatriots in a horrific war.
Those who had waged it faced four possible charges.
1. Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of a crime against peace
2. Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace
3. Participating in war crimes
4. Crimes against humanity.
It all started with a conspiracy. A false flag operation designed to mislead and trigger a war. But the truth was clear - a mafia-like organisation had taken control of a once-great nation and provoked war in the narrow interest of its new elite.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
Today’s parallels are clear. No, not fascism but the gang in the Kremlin are a mafia-like organisation in charge of a state. They have robbed and murdered their way to power.
Now they’re trying the same abroad.
He’s tried to run the same protection racket he’s spun in Moscow, on the people of Kyiv but they weren’t buying it so he’s trying something else.
He’s trying to show that only other choice for Ukraine is pointless. The west is weak and divided and won’t really help them. 5
He knows he can’t hold Ukraine. 130,000 troops is a lot for a border raid but nowhere near enough for an occupation.
Ukrainians would fight and that means he would need to plan for casualties and reserves.
When he invaded eastern Ukraine and annexed Crimea in 2014 he lost hundreds of soldiers. Their mothers protested in Moscow and brought out many in support. He knows the same could happen again.
That’s why his plan isn’t just about war it’s about chaos.
Like all the worst leaders, he’s using chaos to his own advantage. Division is what rulers try if they can’t achieve the cooperation that builds real strength. 8/
He’s trying to keep the pot simmering to keep the pressure on us and expose our divisions.
He knows he could walk away now and lie about his great victory at home - the number of foreigners who have been to Moscow show he’s the main man - or he could see what else he can get. 9/
So far, he’s used the crisis to:
1. Look useful to his new friends in Beijing by demonstrating he can distract us as long as he wants,
2. Look strong at home by mocking those who talk about treaties when he talks about power, 10/
3. Prove to the world that his rivals are divided and unwilling to take the action needed to face him down.
And all this he’s done without crossing a red line.
He’s created a huge call option - he could cash in now, or hold to see what more he can get.
So what are our options?
Playing his game in Moscow makes us weaker but abandoning Ukraine makes our other eastern allies nervous.
That’s why we need to get serious at home.
Dirty money has been an issue for decades but its poison is seeping deeper into our system.
For decades, Russian companies have used our markets to raise money - equities and debt - to finance the Kremlin. As their economy has failed, they’ve used fronts to find cash. 13/
We’ve done nothing to stop it. Instead we’ve threatened vague sanctions on individuals whose assets are hidden and have more than enough to accept losing some now and again.
If we’re serious, we have to choose to act.
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmfaff/1703/170307.htm
Putin’s survival should require cooperation not chaos but that would require us to take decisions:
1. Stop focusing on individuals and close our markets to Russian firms - there’s almost no real private sector at scale.
2. Expel the families of those linked to the regime.
3. Support Europe to end its dependence on Russian gas.
4. Fund free media to allow Russians to hear the truth about their rulers and close down their propaganda arms abroad. 16/
5. Increase help to those threatened by Putin’s aggression and pledge support for Ukrainian resistance.
6. Last - but in every way most important - stop corruption at home and prosecute it.
Taking fraud seriously, prosecuting enablers, whatever their profession, and exposing the full web of dirty dealing too public scrutiny is the first step to showing we’re serious. 18/
Until we publish the assets of officials whose salaries don’t match their lifestyles and clean up our own city, they won’t take us seriously and we’ll be kept simmering.
Sergey Lavrov would have mocked Liz Truss less if she’d threatened his gold not just his integrity.
There is no need for war. Even Putin doesn’t really want it. What he wants is for us to serve his interests and through our division show his strength.
We don’t have to play this game anymore. We must stop pretending treaties matter to these crooks and act.
It will cost and we’ll have to be serious. But our democracy is being undermined and our alliances could unravel.
We know the truth - you can have freedom or corruption, not both.
Putin’s conspiracy made it clear - the time has come to choose.
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1492830556358328321.html

Well, well ...
EU hands Britain post-Brexit olive branch – an offer to lead new security council
European leaders impressed with Westminster’s handling of Ukraine crisis set to propose leadership of new body and put tensions behind them.

Putin will be 70 this year.
Perhaps he wants his place in history.

Jaberwok

Yes that could well be true, but at a very high cost to the countries of Eastern Europe who went from one tyranny to another including East Germany. Protecting Poland from Hitler was one thing, Stalin? A complete No,No. Stalin was completely ruthless and threatened the West for years as did his successors. There was a brief period when it did look as if we could all live in freedom and peace, but with advent of Putin that now looks under severe threat and in danger of becoming a distant dream.

Yes true. My uncle was shot by the kgb, katyn massacre, 22,000 officers, intelligentsia, police etc were slaughtered. Stalin and his henchmen were completely ruthless. Putin is cast in the same mold

Yes that could well be true, but at a very high cost to the countries of Eastern Europe who went from one tyranny to another including East Germany. Protecting Poland from Hitler was one thing, Stalin? A complete No,No. Stalin was completely ruthless and threatened the West for years as did his successors. There was a brief period when it did look as if we could all live in freedom and peace, but with advent of Putin that now looks under severe threat and in danger of becoming a distant dream.

Jaberwok

Perhaps that is exactly the sort of man we do need to combat a wily twisting devious man like Putin, Playing the game and being squeaky clean has never won any battles. If the enemy can predict your every move and trust every utterance, you will be over run in less time than it takes to shout 'truce'. WW2 certainly wasn't won by being gentlemanly and saying 'after you'.

Strangely enough, the Allies would possibly not have won WW2, if Russia hadn't entered WW2 in 1941. Putin is a better strategist than Hitler ever was. I see no need to fight him, as we'd probably lose. What we do need is strong leadership - or at least somebody who isn't seen as a modern-day Mr Blobby.

Callistemon21

Kali2

This is chillig grannypiper- you must be so worried, and I am sorry.

However, are you allowed to say that he has been deployed on Social Media?

It has been reported in the newspapers so not a secret.
They would be part of a NATO force and ready to help if there is a surge of refugees fleeing Ukraine.

Correct ?

Kali2

This is chillig grannypiper- you must be so worried, and I am sorry.

However, are you allowed to say that he has been deployed on Social Media?

It has been reported in the newspapers so not a secret.
They would be part of a NATO force and ready to help if there is a surge of refugees fleeing Ukraine.

Jaberwok

Perhaps that is exactly the sort of man we do need to combat a wily twisting devious man like Putin, Playing the game and being squeaky clean has never won any battles. If the enemy can predict your every move and trust every utterance, you will be over run in less time than it takes to shout 'truce'. WW2 certainly wasn't won by being gentlemanly and saying 'after you'.

Johnson is too chaotic and lazy to run a war or take part in intelligent diplomacy.

Besides he has not either won our trust or respect as prime minister

Perhaps that is exactly the sort of man we do need to combat a wily twisting devious man like Putin, Playing the game and being squeaky clean has never won any battles. If the enemy can predict your every move and trust every utterance, you will be over run in less time than it takes to shout 'truce'. WW2 certainly wasn't won by being gentlemanly and saying 'after you'.

I do not want a PM who lies and ignores rules and regulations to be dealing with the invasion of Ukraine by the Russians. If he can't be trusted to run 10 Downing Street in an orderly manner, what makes you think that he can deal with what could turn out to be a major conflict? Partygate isn't a trivial thing to be forgotten, it tells us what sort of a man he is, and he is not the sort of person we need to handle this crisis. Johnson needs to go and be replaced by someone we can trust to do the right thing.