Legacy of the fraudulent referendum

A huge number of Brits have been living under the radar, neither here, nor there - and travelled to the UK to use the NHS as and when needed- despite them not being entiltled to use the NHS anymore, as it is residence based, not nationality.

We speak English together all the time, but we are both fluent in French and switch whenever we are in company.

OH will always have a strong English accent, that everyone loves here- but he can communicate freely. He is a scientist and only skimmed his O'Level and is certainly not a natural linguist. But it was always clear to him that if he was going to spend lenghthy periods of time abroad, he had to learn the language- out of respect for the locals. Very few anglo-saxon immigrants here, but plenty from Italy, Portugal, Spain and the Balkans.

Boston and East Europeans, or other towns with other immigrants- changing the culture of those areas - yes, this has always been so, Picts, Jutes, Angles, Saxons, Romans, Normans - and so many more over the centuries. What I strongly object to, is that often the very people who complain about the above, go on and do exactly the same, even 'worse' as they don't even learn the local language at all. And THEY do change the culture. Very many notable and wonderful exceptions, I know.

You can go to some towns in the South of Spain, Cyprus, in parts of France- where the local language is not heard at all- and shops and restaurants, markets, etc- cater almost 100% to those incomers.

I imagine Mamie that governments (everywhere) are tightening up. Technology helps now too. Not before time.
Too many folk have ducked and dived over the years because they could.

Interesting to read today that there are 165,000 British who have received permanent resident cards here in France. Estimates have always varied hugely, but these are presumably pretty accurate. We do have to show them quite frequently.

Thank you Kali2 ?

Absolutely nothing wrong with that umg.

Josieann ✅
Thank you for understanding.

Alegrias1

But that's exactly the attitude. They all wanna speak English, don't they?

Imagine, oh I don't know... say you had a holiday home in a foreign country that you visited several times a year. Your knowledge of the local language is so patchy that when the waiter hears what you speaking, s/he immediately switches into English because they know you're struggling.

I'd be embarrassed. But maybe its just me...(and everybody I know)

You seem to be a bit chippy about this Alegrias.
The 3 Spanish bars under our apartment where we visit several times a year are so lovely with us. We spend well, we’ve gotten to know their grandchildren, we’ve taken presents, they know of our family.

They never rush us when we try. We order. They listen.
They are so kind.
They never immediately switch into English.
I’m not embarrassed.
We’ve known them all 18 years! They are patient.
But they and their staff DO like very much to practice their English!

It’s a universal 2nd language.
Sorry if that annoys you.

Spanish parents there in our residential area pay €60 a month for their little children to have English lessons. Of course they like to practice.
?

That was to 17.44 post.

I agree Urmstongran . However one voted, whatever the result, we weren't going to have to hand over our holiday homes. That was what I was trying to explain about nothing changing regarding property ownership. There were so many scare stories at the time.

Josieann

But we are not talking about understanding the language in depth here. More about manners, politesse, etiquette which doesn't require a lot of effort from anyone.

Totally agree Josieann ?
Civility costs nothing.

^ guess I'm biased, but being able to speak a foreign language is more than being able to order in a restaurant or other simple tourist transactions^

Well bully for you growstuff.
Maybe I’m just thick and uneducated. But I have tried.
Truly.
Maybe I’m just rubbish with no ear for languages.

Doesn’t make me less of a (nice) person.

I am just stunned that someone who has a home in Spain thought it was a good idea to leave the EU. Very odd. We have friends who have a home in a EU country, voted to leave, and now that the implications have hit, as they get older, seriously regret their vote

We only have a holiday home in Spain. Gill57. We don’t live there! Maybe your friends actually do?

So, for us, not ‘odd’ at all. ?
We voted - thinking of our family’s future in the UK.

Urmstongran

Apologies to MaizieD.
Thank you Kali2. I got muddled.

I’m back.

Maizie D ... I’d already apologised 2 hours before you urged me to read the posts properly!

Oh dear!

That reminds me of a French child on a school visit to London. His host family were strict muslims ( he wasn't) and he had to eat in a separate room and not with the family. Told to me by the GM

I went to school for several months in France in the early 70s and was given the best desk in the class and sat at the top of the dining table. Often the teachers would ask me questions, genuinely interested, about my country, my language etc. When my penfriend came to my school in London she was shoved at the back of the class and made to feel a nuisance, no one was interested. She went back home after 2 weeks.
Sadly, there is a very British attitude that if something is of no use to us, then often we don't make an effort.

But we are not talking about understanding the language in depth here. More about manners, politesse, etiquette which doesn't require a lot of effort from anyone.

Alegrias1

Completely off topic anecdote...

I used to travel back and forward to France on Brittany Ferries. I would speak to the staff in the restaurant in French, as many of the travellers could. But they only started treating me as a "proper" French resident when I ordered the cheese before the dessert

I never reached that stage in France, as I was only there as a (mature) student, but I do remember once being caught out by rail strikes, having to abandon a train à mi-chemin and take a taxi to complete my journey to the airport, and spend 30 minutes answering the driver's questions about why we Brits seemed so anti-EU (1996)! I actually felt quite chuffed about the way that conversation went

Sadly it's true that in some parts of the UK the immigrant population do not all speak English, let alone attempt. I used to work with a Pakistani lawyer who moved with some of his family to the UK when he was a child. He grew up and was educated at Uni here and also trained here. His family lived in Bradford and he spoke with that accent. If you didn't see him but heard him speak you would think he was English. In his thirties, he decided to marry a girl from Pakistan. This was to honour his father. That is something I just don't get. She had lived in Pakistan all her life and I think had had a little schooling in English.

His mother, sister SILs and his wife did speak English at all.

I'm sure that this situation has been repeated many times. His friends with whom he was at school and college were all professionals and they had all married women from their home countries and they spoke little English.

His colleagues asked him whether we would get to meet his wife day and the answer was no, she wouldn't even meet the
Pakistani wives of his friends.

Culturally we are so different to our Asian immigrants that sometimes it is difficult to see how they will ever truly assimilate. A very small example - my friend's wife needed some shoes and a cardigan and so he took her shopping. She asked what she should chose - he said whatever you like. She was unused to be able to make a choice. Can you imagine a young British woman doing that? She wasn't asking for confirmation but was asking what she could have.

Sadly the last time I saw him he had left his wife and was fearful as to what her brothers would do.

I hope I am not coming over as a racist, which I'm not but I can understand why some English are unhappy especially as sometimes there are no attempts to integrate.

Alegrias1

GrannyGravy13

Alegrias1

But that's exactly the attitude. They all wanna speak English, don't they?

Imagine, oh I don't know... say you had a holiday home in a foreign country that you visited several times a year. Your knowledge of the local language is so patchy that when the waiter hears what you speaking, s/he immediately switches into English because they know you're struggling.

I'd be embarrassed. But maybe its just me...(and everybody I know)

My family lived in mainland Europe, in a country which was not part of the EU for over ten years, we spoke the language, worked with locals and immigrants from multiple Countries and my sibling attended school there.

Does it really annoy you that English is spoken worldwide?

You misrepresent me GG13, but I think you know that.

I lived in France for several years, and learned to speak French. I've spent a lot of time in Spain and can hold a reasonable conversation in Spanish, although my written Spanish is bad. I've visited Turkey twice and can speak no Turkish at all. Likewise Mandarin, Italian, Dutch and Swedish, amongst other languages.

My point is, that if you are spending an extended amount of time in a country, I believe that it is good manners to learn to converse in the language of that country and not to assume that anyone you meet will be delighted to practice their English on you.

I guess I'm biased, but being able to speak a foreign language is more than being able to order in a restaurant or other simple tourist transactions. Understanding and speaking another language opens minds to different thought systems through, for example, literature, films, media and jokes. It's not really possible to understand different philosophies without understanding the nuances of the language. Being able to "think" in another language enables people to stand outside parochialism.

Alegrias1

Completely off topic anecdote...

I used to travel back and forward to France on Brittany Ferries. I would speak to the staff in the restaurant in French, as many of the travellers could. But they only started treating me as a "proper" French resident when I ordered the cheese before the dessert

If you, comme moi, have eaten at Le Gavroche, Mere or Murano in London, you are given a menu carte with English translations under the French or Italian name of the dishes. The waiter politely hovers while you order in your chosen language and then continues to propose other dishes in the same language. Class!

A close relative of mine lives in a Italy and teaches English there . He speaks at least 5 languages fluently, even the local dialect of the region. He organised Erasmus exchanges which are no more, he even had to send back some British uni students in the middle of their course as the U.K. government stopped the funding mid course.

Alegrias1 I am laughing at the idea of asking the person in the patisserie for a squidgy nun. ?

Completely off topic anecdote...

I used to travel back and forward to France on Brittany Ferries. I would speak to the staff in the restaurant in French, as many of the travellers could. But they only started treating me as a "proper" French resident when I ordered the cheese before the dessert