Legacy of the fraudulent referendum

English Language schools in the UK have been hit hard by Covid and now by Brexit - French, German and Italian students are more frequently going to language schools in Dublin for English tuition - its cheaper, they accept ID cards and no mucking around with visa etc.

And being called an expat drives me bonkers; we are migrants. Expats are traditionally temporarily in another country to work for a company before returning home. Grrr....

Alegrias1

But that's exactly the attitude. They all wanna speak English, don't they?

Imagine, oh I don't know... say you had a holiday home in a foreign country that you visited several times a year. Your knowledge of the local language is so patchy that when the waiter hears what you speaking, s/he immediately switches into English because they know you're struggling.

I'd be embarrassed. But maybe its just me...(and everybody I know)

That is so true, Alegrias.

I have to smile at your description of the waitors who switch into English immediately when an English person is trying to speak Spanish.
My late dad tried his best to learn enough Spanish to get by on his annual holidays, but unfortunately never got beyond the stage where that happened in bars and restaurants. Either the waiters were trying to be helpful, they were expected by their boss to use their English, or they were rushed off their feet and simply didn't have the time to wait for him to make himself clear.
That said, he found staff in the hotels were generally happy to let him use what Spanish he had, and he seemed to build up a good rapport with a them. They encouraged his efforts and made him happy.

I, on the other hand, speak a couple of foreign languages quite well, and Spanish is one of them. Because of that, I know just how much it annoys a lot of Spanish people, including shop owners and staff in tourist areas, that so many English people, even those who have property there and live most of the year there, make little or no attempt to learn their language.
When they have realized that I am fairly fluent, they have been very quick to open up to me on that topic.

A member of our extended family falls into the 'they need our money and who cares if we don't speak Spanish to them, they like to speak English' catagory.
He spends more of the year in Spain than he does in England, yet despite having property there for over forty years now, only knows half a dozen Spanish words at the most. He is also someone who thinks that the ability to speak fluent English should be mandatory for anyone expecting to live here in the UK.
I find it very hard to bite my tongue in his company, the word hypocrite being the one that is hard to keep back.

We are the only Brits in our village in Normandy and none live anywhere near as far as I know. Our friends are French and although I know a few English people, our experience is that most have long since gone back.
I do think it is right to speak the language of the country you live in, but I wouldn't want to condemn or patronise people who find it hard. You wouldn't be able to manage here without speaking French and certainly wouldn't find doctors, dentists etc.
I keep trying to retire, but I am still teaching English fifteen years after official retirement, the demand locally is constant.
My son has been teaching English in inland Spain for over 25 years. His language school still has very high demand.

Sorry, GG13, cross post. I appreciate your comment.

When I lived in France I had a "language buddy" and we met up twice a week, an hour of French and an hour of English. So we could both learn.

I never thought I was being generous to the lady in the baker's if I couldn't work out how to ask for a "religieuse" and had to break into English to do it.

I had no intention of misinterpreting you Alegrias1

If that is how my post appeared to you, I apologise.

Kali2

Why is it 'annoying' when other nationalities speak their language among each other in the UK? AND learn and speak the local language too.

No issue with English being spoken worldwide- not at all. It is very useful for all. But there is a limit- when Anglo-Saxon expats DEMAND that everyone speaks English, from the shop-keeper, to the plumber, doctor, police or ... anyone, then it grates. And it changes the local culture. This was mentionned because someone mentionned how some towns in the UK have seen their local culture change due to groups of foreigners (Boston was mentionned). At least most East Europeans in the UK speak English and learn fast- unlike ...

When you have communities where all the shops, cafés, restaurants, Churches, clubs and schools, etc- speak a different language, it can affect the local community. And no less so when it is Anglo-Saxons elsewhere, be it in Spain, Cyprus, etc, or posh ski resorts, and low taxation towns in Switzerland.

Doesn’t annoy me Kali2 I would never DEMAND anyone to converse in English, if it’s their choice I would not DENY them the opportunity to practise English or any other language either.

Not all ex-pats live in same nationality enclaves, whether they be English, Scandinavian, Asian etc, I respect others the right to chose to if they so wish.

It’s good to be open minded and not tar all with a sweeping brush.

GrannyGravy13

Alegrias1

But that's exactly the attitude. They all wanna speak English, don't they?

Imagine, oh I don't know... say you had a holiday home in a foreign country that you visited several times a year. Your knowledge of the local language is so patchy that when the waiter hears what you speaking, s/he immediately switches into English because they know you're struggling.

I'd be embarrassed. But maybe its just me...(and everybody I know)

My family lived in mainland Europe, in a country which was not part of the EU for over ten years, we spoke the language, worked with locals and immigrants from multiple Countries and my sibling attended school there.

Does it really annoy you that English is spoken worldwide?

You misrepresent me GG13, but I think you know that.

I lived in France for several years, and learned to speak French. I've spent a lot of time in Spain and can hold a reasonable conversation in Spanish, although my written Spanish is bad. I've visited Turkey twice and can speak no Turkish at all. Likewise Mandarin, Italian, Dutch and Swedish, amongst other languages.

My point is, that if you are spending an extended amount of time in a country, I believe that it is good manners to learn to converse in the language of that country and not to assume that anyone you meet will be delighted to practice their English on you.

Fact check. There are 6912 languages in the world. 94% of the world’s population does not speak English as their first language. 75% do not speak English at all. It depends which country you go to, obviously as percentages who speak English vary - it’s a challenge in Japan I do know.

Why is it 'annoying' when other nationalities speak their language among each other in the UK? AND learn and speak the local language too.

No issue with English being spoken worldwide- not at all. It is very useful for all. But there is a limit- when Anglo-Saxon expats DEMAND that everyone speaks English, from the shop-keeper, to the plumber, doctor, police or ... anyone, then it grates. And it changes the local culture. This was mentionned because someone mentionned how some towns in the UK have seen their local culture change due to groups of foreigners (Boston was mentionned). At least most East Europeans in the UK speak English and learn fast- unlike ...

When you have communities where all the shops, cafés, restaurants, Churches, clubs and schools, etc- speak a different language, it can affect the local community. And no less so when it is Anglo-Saxons elsewhere, be it in Spain, Cyprus, etc, or posh ski resorts, and low taxation towns in Switzerland.

Research by New Financial indicates that: Between June 2015 and April 2021, over 440 banking and finance organisations have left the UK and relocated to the EU. ... 7,400 financial services jobs have moved, leading to concern that new jobs may be created in the EU rather than the UK in the future.

Alegrias1

But that's exactly the attitude. They all wanna speak English, don't they?

Imagine, oh I don't know... say you had a holiday home in a foreign country that you visited several times a year. Your knowledge of the local language is so patchy that when the waiter hears what you speaking, s/he immediately switches into English because they know you're struggling.

I'd be embarrassed. But maybe its just me...(and everybody I know)

My family lived in mainland Europe, in a country which was not part of the EU for over ten years, we spoke the language, worked with locals and immigrants from multiple Countries and my sibling attended school there.

Does it really annoy you that English is spoken worldwide?

Kali2

There is 'tourism and tourism' ! And there is a bigt difference between those who travel for 1 week or two, or those who travel like swallows, for a whole season.

I think many Spaniard would love to see more Spanish restaurants, serving good quality local fare, and bars, and tourists being more respectful of the local culture and fare, and try to make a mit more effort with learning the language, etc.

Back in the 80s we borrowed a flat near Mojacar. My Baedeker had a photo of the town on the front cover and it looked lovely.
Imagine our disappointment when we searched for a restaurant selling Spanish food. We did find one and the food was delicious but too expensive for us to eat there often. The others sold "Euro" food - burgers, pizzas, spag bol, fish and chips etc etc. More than half the resident population at that time was British and added to that, Scandinavians and some other nationalities.

We had a trip to Almeria and one to Granada and found authentic Spanish food at both, which was very good. Maybe things have changed now and the Brits cook Spanish food too.

Kali2 You do a disservice to the Dordogne and us Brits.

There is one town where nearly all the businesses are run by Brits - Eymet - which I've visited once and probably won't again. In my commune of more than 650 souls, there are precisely 19 resident Brits. There are also a few Dutch and American. Generally the French us because we keep businesses open. Talking to a French resident the other night about what the village used to be like he said that there were two butchers, three bars, a quincaillerie, bakers, post office and so. Now we have a baker (excellent bread) and a shoe repairer. The bar closed in August and the restaurant in October. The latter isn't opening this year. The former is opening tomorrow - under a manager because the owner is an anti vaxxer.

It's a similar picture in England. The village I used to live in was used as a location for the film Akenfield. The author Ronald Blythe used to live along the from us. At one time the village had several businesses. One house was called TOPOS - short for The Old Post Office Shop. The main difference between England and France is that the incomers are of the same nationality as the existing residents in the villages. I realise this is rather a sweeping statement but you get the picture.

But that's exactly the attitude. They all wanna speak English, don't they?

Imagine, oh I don't know... say you had a holiday home in a foreign country that you visited several times a year. Your knowledge of the local language is so patchy that when the waiter hears what you speaking, s/he immediately switches into English because they know you're struggling.

I'd be embarrassed. But maybe its just me...(and everybody I know)

Alegrias1

I'm sure all the business that are supported by tourism in any part of Spain are glad for the revenue that they get from visitors, whether they go there to dance in the bars, sit in the sun or eat fish and chips. Or even visit their historical sites and experience their natural places.

But I do get annoyed by the insistence that they're happy to take our money and who cares if we don't speak Spanish to them, they like to speak English approach. Its the worst aspect of the Brit abroad, IMO. Sorry.

Well as a person who pre-Covid travelled abroad at least four times a year, different Countries and different Continents, who has a smattering of several different languages I have never been anywhere where they did not want to/try to converse in English.

You can be as cross as you like Alegrias1 but that’s how it is.

But it has always been thus Alegrias1. I don't think the mentality of those Brits will change.
If anything, Brexit might have made a certain number of people less discerning, even less well behaved and respectful abroad, but I hope not. It verges on arrogance.

I'm sure all the business that are supported by tourism in any part of Spain are glad for the revenue that they get from visitors, whether they go there to dance in the bars, sit in the sun or eat fish and chips. Or even visit their historical sites and experience their natural places.

But I do get annoyed by the insistence that they're happy to take our money and who cares if we don't speak Spanish to them, they like to speak English approach. Its the worst aspect of the Brit abroad, IMO. Sorry.

HolySox

Chatting with my SIL, was saying there are loads of good jobs around. He has just moved jobs into a bigger salary, as alsp has my DS. Lack of labour is bad news for businesses but good news for workers as businesses have to pay more, often just a decent wage. We're short on UK HGV drivers as they're pay and conditions were s**t. Funny, it seems the working man (Labour voter) and young people are reaping benefits from BREXIT yet it's the older generation and Tories voted for it!

Surely it depends upon the nature of your SIL's work - there are lots of good jobs around (my post elsewhere refers to them). However, they are mostly for skilled people and are not offering training.

In case it's escaped your notice, many of the jobs now available are because people approaching retirement age have decided to take early retirement. Furthermore, you are not considering the locations of the vacancies.

Remember Tebbit telling people to get on their bikes?

I expect all those locals in Ibiza and other party places love practising their English on the English youth who go to get drunk and behave appallingly in their country. I'm ashamed of them. Another thing about Brexit lies - weren't we told that everyone in all these other countries were deeply envious of the Brits and that the EU would collapse as soon as we left? The city of London has lost out as being the centre of Euro derivatives, and many thousands of jobs have gone.

From my angle the argument isn't about logistics or Brexit, it's about the environment. Environmentally it doesn't make sense to import food from the other side of the world if it can be grown successfully in Europe.

This is an interesting article. www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55408788

We import from the EU because it's convenient and economic. A lettuce picked in Belgium can be in British stores by the evening or next morning.

True

And, of course, a lettuce grown in Australia would cost three times as much because, unlike the EU, farm workers even casual ones, are paid a very good minimum wage plus holiday pay and pension. Unlike countries like Spain which uses slave labour from Africa.

The UK has always imported certain foodstuffs from South Africa, North Africa, South America, Norway, etc.

The idea of sustainable food trade with Australia or New Zealand is ridiculous.

It makes economic sense to import from areas where food can be produced and transported from most efficiently, which in many cases is the EU.

If it makes sense to import foodstuffs from eg Chile, Argentina, Brazil why does it not make sense to import foodstuffs from Australia?


The argument is not about logistics, is it - it's more anti-Brexit rhetoric.
We lost the referendum , growstuff but I don't lose hope and try not to complain about things I cannot change.

(Interesting username considering the discussion! Do you grow your own?)

We import from the EU because it's convenient and economic. A lettuce picked in Belgium can be in British stores by the evening or next morning.

The UK has always imported certain foodstuffs from South Africa, North Africa, South America, Norway, etc.

The idea of sustainable food trade with Australia or New Zealand is ridiculous.

It makes economic sense to import from areas where food can be produced and transported from most efficiently, which in many cases is the EU.

The UK produces wealth from trading, research and financial services, which make a better use of our resources than growing salad crops or eating the fish which happen to swim in our waters, for example, ever could.