Scottish Independence

I agree, Alegrias1, the 2014 referendum was a time of great energy and very little rancour. It has been pointed out before that apart from Jim Murphy's egg, the violence came from unionists (not all from Scotland) who rampaged in George Square after the result. I am still very good friends with someone who thought hard about her vote and voted No, and it has never come between us. We respect the choices each other made.

There are some on here who will never listen to what we say, but feel free to use the sort of language about Scots which they would never use about people of colour or Jewish people!

Do you think it was a lovely present for us from England?

"Gives" is an interesting word.

What about the Barnett formula which gives Scotland money from UK? It is claimed spending in Scotland is 30% higher per person than in England. In 19/20 £32billion went to Scotland, £16billion to Wales and £12billion to Northern Ireland.

MayBee70 the run up to the referendum in Scotland was really, really not unpleasant at all. I know that some on here will expect me to say that, but really, it was the most energising time I can remember. I was an activist, as I mentioned above.

We didn't berate people, we didn't threaten them, we didn't insult their intelligence. I'm sure that there were extremists out there that were anti-English, but the worst thing that happened was that the Labour guy got an egg thrown at him.

Now this will be unpopular; I have Unionist friends, born in England, who think everyone was getting at them during the referendum. I had one friend who felt very uncomfortable at a North Sea Gas concert because all the songs were anti English (). My point is that some people didn't like having to consider that what they'd always thought was going to be there might not be as written in stone as they thought. Some people don't like their preconceptions being questioned and don't like change. Some people have a chip on their shoulder (sorry...they do....)

When (not if ) Scotland gets its independence, we won't wake up one day and everything will have changed overnight. Countries all over the world seem to manage with land borders. And everything else. Goodness, what an opportunity. Why does anyone think its going to be easy? Its going to be complicated, and its going to be worth it.

If every seat in Scotland went Labour, Tories would still have a majority of 30. Can't lay that one at our feet.

And your friend wasn't the only person in tears on the day after the referendum.

www.northseagas.co.uk/?page_id=62

We were on holiday with some Scottish people when the result of the referendum came through and they were so relieved with the result: the lady was in tears. From what they said the run up to the referendum was quite unpleasant, dividing families and friendships, just as the EU referendum did here. And I’m sure I remember unpleasant placards in fields at the time, just as we had in England during the EU referendum. Surely Labour losing so many seats to the SNP is one of the reasons why they struggle to get a majority in parliament which results in constantly having Conservative governments that then fuels the Scottish independence argument. What I’d like is to have is a Labour government combined with the SNP working for a better future for the Union as a whole and, given that Scotland has it’s own government what would be gained by independence? It’s going to be a nightmare on the borders if Scotland does gain independence. Some people have farms that straddle the border. What will they do?As with the EU referendum, it’s far more complicated than it has been made out to be. And I can’t see Scotland just being able to rejoin the EU. I’m sure that, at the next election Labour are going to have to work with the SNP and promise for there to be another referendum. But I’d like to think that the SNP will work with Starmer to make both countries a better place and there will be no need to separate the two countries.

Sandycat

Lolo81 - Oh for goodness sake, such twisted thinking. Why do separatists always argue as though they are already independent? Scotland is just a part of the UNITED KINGDOM when they vote in a general election. The fact that they are not voting for the party which gains power is irrelevant! Other areas of the UK can be predominantly voting for other parties too but they accept the majority of the UK’s decision, that is our voting system at the moment. I’ve said it already and I’ll say it again - stop playing the victim, it’s just childish.

Except that your analogy is irrelevant. Yorkshire (as an example) doesn’t have a devolved government or country status in every way except governance - Yorkshire is a region. And Scotland also has regions with its own trends in voting etc.
Just because I disagree with you doesn’t make me childish. Stating facts doesn’t make me a victim. In fact I’ve been fairly respectfully disagreeing…..and not resorting to petty insults meant to minimise or diminish.

This makes a bit of light relief from discussing the twerp we've got in No 10.

where did you get the idea that Scotland wants to leave. None of us know that, certainly not me. I know that 45% of us did last time, I’m one of them, and I’m giving you my opinion. But a compete misrepresentation of anything a Yes voter says is quite familiar to us, now, so I’m not surprised.

Get used to it. I’m so glad to be able to discuss things in a serious and respectful way.

The Scottish “SMPs” (?) only attend for things that are relevant to the country of Scotland. Sad little digs about corruption are quite pitiful, really. But quite standard.

Algerias1 - where did you get the idea that Scotland wants to leave. The result of the referendum just over 7 years ago resulted in stay with the rest of the uk and if there was another I’m getting the distinct impression it would be an even bigger margin of stayers. I wasn’t implying we were one big happy family just that as it stands we are politically one. Get used to it. I am surprised that the Scottish SMP’s don’t do the same as the NI republicans and refuse to attend Westminster since they hold it in such low regard, but then again the loss of money through travel, accommodation etc may have something to do with it!

Sandycat

Lolo81 - Oh for goodness sake, such twisted thinking. Why do separatists always argue as though they are already independent? Scotland is just a part of the UNITED KINGDOM when they vote in a general election. The fact that they are not voting for the party which gains power is irrelevant! Other areas of the UK can be predominantly voting for other parties too but they accept the majority of the UK’s decision, that is our voting system at the moment. I’ve said it already and I’ll say it again - stop playing the victim, it’s just childish.

This is so true. large parts of England have voted labour since all adults got the vote, we will probably continue to do so again at the next election after this governments shenanigans. We have always been the underdogs if we want to see it that way living with a government that we did not elect. We accept the rule of the majority the same with Brexit.

Sandycat

Lolo81 - Oh for goodness sake, such twisted thinking. Why do separatists always argue as though they are already independent? Scotland is just a part of the UNITED KINGDOM when they vote in a general election. The fact that they are not voting for the party which gains power is irrelevant! Other areas of the UK can be predominantly voting for other parties too but they accept the majority of the UK’s decision, that is our voting system at the moment. I’ve said it already and I’ll say it again - stop playing the victim, it’s just childish.

This is such a big subject, I always get drawn in…

Calling us “separatists”, while technically correct, is a ruse to demonise the people in Scotland who what to, basically, revert to what our natural state of government was before we joined what was meant to be an equal Union with England & Wales. It’s been very nice, but we’d like to be off now, thank you.

Trying to say that we’re all one big happy family and the completely different political landscape in Scotland is "just" comparable with bits of England is the twisted thinking, I’m afraid. We’re not Yorkshire. We’re not Somerset. We’re a country that England is mean to be in Union with.

So just stop minimising us.

Lolo81 - Oh for goodness sake, such twisted thinking. Why do separatists always argue as though they are already independent? Scotland is just a part of the UNITED KINGDOM when they vote in a general election. The fact that they are not voting for the party which gains power is irrelevant! Other areas of the UK can be predominantly voting for other parties too but they accept the majority of the UK’s decision, that is our voting system at the moment. I’ve said it already and I’ll say it again - stop playing the victim, it’s just childish.

Sandycat

paddyann54 please give it a rest! You are wasting your breath. Apart from the few other Scottish grans who are of the same opinion as yourself all this angst is wasted. We have no power to give you what you want. As for giving you an answer as to why Scotland has broken Windows, knackered gutters and Ford Escorts up on bricks, I can assure you these are not restricted to Scotland but is the norm in any English city. stop playing the victim we’re all in the same boat but the government we have was elected in accordance with uk law of which you are a part and I can’t see that changing in your lifetime.

Except Scottish and English voters aren’t in the same boat at all. Since 1945 in every general election the English voters have been governed by the party that the majority of their population voted for. The same cannot be said for Scottish voters who have overwhelmingly (especially since Thatcher) been more left leaning and have been saddled with increasingly right wing governance (minus the Blair era). For me that’s the issue and I would assume that there are many who would engage more in politics if their vote actually meant anything in terms of making a difference.

“A wealthy one that has been pouring money into your coffers”.

Well yes, except a lot of that wealth has been from the areas around Shetland. And they want independence too.

Will that make a big difference to the plans?

Actually, given the Brexit problems ? do you foresee any similar difficulties in the practicalities of Independence for Scotland? Borders, tariffs and suchlike.

I’m not disputing the Independence movement. It’s my nature to wonder about how things work rather than ideals. Is there a document somewhere that looks at that kind of thing that I could read?

Aye, we've been good at Enlightenment in Scotland.

You are aware (are you?) that a vote for independence isn't a vote for the SNP?

Sturgeon is the only UK leader with a positive popularity rating. Just because you think something is the case that doesn't make it true.

No please enlighten me Alegrias1 - I’m not au fait with Scottish metaphors.

As for the idea of Scotland declaring independence without the due process, good luck with that one. it didn’t end well for Catalonia did it and going by the evidence of Sturgeon’s governance I can’t see it being anything a majority of Scots would go for as respect for her must be about as low as yours is for Boris.

ach Sandycat I'm not interested in what you think,I'm as entitled to post my views just like anyone else.I am hoping that some of the staunch unionists on here might fond something that strikes a chord and opens their eyes to WHY we need to go cap in hand for our own money from WM.

Look at India the "British" government stole £45 TRILLION from that country all the while bemoaning how poor it was and how the largesse of England was keeping them afloat .
Pretty much the same way they treat us.And while I'm sad that areas of England are deprived ,they are AREAS OF ENGLAND ,.This is a country a wealthy one that has been pouring money into your coffers for decades,no,centuries.For goodness sake wake up and see the truth .
Independence is normal and its coming ,so maybe adjust your expectations because when we go you'll be a hell of alot poorer than you are ,Richard Rodgers American financial whizz says " when Scotland leaves the UK they will take their wealth with them..well it is their oil and gas amongst much more and England will realise that Scotland has been paying not just the interest on all your debts but your bills as well "

Alegrias1, let's be clear that we do "care what you think" if you are someone like TopsyIrene06 who might come and join us! As you went on to say, the door is open and the kettle's on, and anyone who lives here and pays taxes here (if applicable) is welcome to vote in any future referendum!

As a side issue, the old argument about native Scots who live elsewhere being entitled to vote is a distraction, of course. I have an English friend who has lived here for nearly 50 years and a Scottish one who moved to England, also about 50 years ago. Which one do you suppose is more invested in life in Scotland now and has more right to express an opinion on independence?

In 2014 you won't be surprised to learn I was quite active in the independence movement. One thing we learnt is that there are 3 kinds of voters when it comes to independence; the people who were already converted to supporting independence as a natural and desirable state for Scotland; the people who think the Union is the only option, and the ones who are willing to listen to the arguments and decide on the facts.

About 30% of voters were in the first group when the campaign started, me included. So we had a mission; convert one person each. Not to worry about the "Unionism is the only answer" people, they won't budge. Concentrate on the "persuadable".

We didn't quite get there, although I got my convert. Next time, we don't have so far to go. So if you're in Scotland and will be Unionist forever, we're not talking to you. If you're in England or anywhere else, while your view is interesting, we really don't care what you think it won't make a difference so please leave us to get on with it.

And the more you tell us we're on a hiding to nothing, the better; nobody likes being told they're not going to get what they want by somebody who doesn't get a say, it makes you more determined. And we're certainly not asking anybody to give us what we want; we're going to take it one of these days when you're not looking.

Anybody who is as disgusted as I am with the shenanigans in WM today, get yourself us here. Door's open, kettle's on.

(BTW Sandycat, you know the Ford Escorts etc are metaphors, yes?)

You might be right Topsy Irene and you’d be most welcome.?

paddyann54 please give it a rest! You are wasting your breath. Apart from the few other Scottish grans who are of the same opinion as yourself all this angst is wasted. We have no power to give you what you want. As for giving you an answer as to why Scotland has broken Windows, knackered gutters and Ford Escorts up on bricks, I can assure you these are not restricted to Scotland but is the norm in any English city. stop playing the victim we’re all in the same boat but the government we have was elected in accordance with uk law of which you are a part and I can’t see that changing in your lifetime.

After today at Westminster paddyann54 and if Scotland becomes independent, I think there will be a queue of people from down south, marching up to Scotland, claiming asylum. Maybe they won't wait for independence either.