Time to squash those disruptive group of tories

uk.mer.eco/news/public-ev-charging-best-practices-in-northern-europe/ this is an interesting article about the challenges with introducing sufficient charging points and producing enough electricity to supple them. Even Norway with its almost total hydroelectric output is going to struggle at times. Goodness knows how the UK will produce enough green electricity to manage.

For those who cannot afford to buy an EV the 'punishments', in the form of taxes and charges, for needing to run a petrol car will eventually price them off the roads, leaving personal transport only for the well off.

Scotsmum that is my concern, the people who can't afford these expensive green options and who will be penalised disproportionately. I remember an MP (not sure which one though) who said about the first London congestion charge to be brought in "it's OK for me, I can easily afford £6 per day, what about the person who needs their vehicle but can't afford it?" My nephew now struggles getting to work. When he exits the road where he lives he's immediately subject to a £12.50 per day charge. Can't afford the charge, can't afford a compliant car.
My Labour local authority won't allow solar panels on any house on my estate because we're a conservation area. They claim to be 'green' too and insist on every green measure for the new social housing being built, but our 'old' houses must look exactly like they did well over a hundred years ago. No visible changes allowed.
I accept the need for changes to save the environment, but the poorest amongst us must not be ignored and forgotten.

Didn’t the previous government remove grants for solar panels?

I understand what you are saying, Scotsmum but in the situation we are in now, with climate change almost looking to be irrevocable and disastrous, I think that we should be looking to government to come up with solutions and investment to reduce the energy requirements of the country. I don't think it is entirely up to individuals to entirely bear the cost themselves.

That could include retrofitting measures in all older properties to reduce energy consumption, such as improved insulation and triple glazing. Installation of solar panels where possible. District heating powered by combustible waste?

And making high energy efficiency and the installation of solar PV and water heating panels a requirement for all new builds, even to the extent of subsidising the costs.

We could be looking to use natural, renewable materials for things like building or recycling plastic into 'bricks' (it's being done), sheep's wool can be used for insulation; there are a host of 'green' solutions which are being developed but which need more than just individual action to implement.

Just a few thoughts, but proven technology so not unattainable if there is the political will to make the necessary investment. Which would repay the economy in terms of growth of manufacturing and employment.

I don't think you are being judged and found wanting. It's a hard situation for all of us.

Interesting opinions.

Seems only the wealthy can afford to be 'green'. Those of us on a fixed income will have far less choice open to them, if any. I suppose the green liberals will be glad when we die out and no longer inconvenience them with our unacceptable lifestyles.

And tell me, just who can afford these fancy new cars anyway? And if they can, what will they do when the government brings in charges by the mile? And who will be cleaning up all the extra pollutants that they bring?

I also wonder, sincerely, what solutions will be on offer for flat dwellers? None that I have heard of so far.
We cannot install solar/pv panels. We cannot have EV chargers. We cannot have heat pumps. Our gas combi boilers will be outlawed.
It feels like we are being blamed for this situation and are going to be targeted because we are trapped by circumstances. Perhaps we will be shamed for ending up in situations that we apparently should have been able to have easily foreseen 20 years ago. I feel really depressed to be so judged and found to be morally inferior.

There is good news on that front Zoejory, lots of research is going on to find alternatives to lithium. This is an interesting read, my sister sent it to me when we were discussing electric cars.
www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2021/11/06/saturday-read-promising-alternatives-to-lithium-ion/

MaizieD

^Another has a Ford hybrid which is self charging.^

I often wonder if hybrids should be the way to go at the moment. I wonder, in terms of fossil fuel usage, how the amount of petrol they use compares with the gas usage necessary to produce the electricity needed to charge all those electric cars?

We have 2 friends with hybrids and they seem very happy with them.

We have an hybrid, and it is superb. We would have had a full EV but do not have the home based plug in.

My sons EV is a Hyundai. The furthest he has been so far to Cornwall and did so on one charge with spare capacity. He then went into a supermarket to get some food and re-charged the car for free. His home recharge plug was installed free with the Cameron offer which lasted for a very short time, I am not sure how much a full charge costs as I have forgotten, but I do remember at the time he told me that I was astounded at how little it cost. Much, much cheaper than a full tank of petrol.
With regards to heat exchangers etc. it would seem that the technology has a way to go before it is sufficient for the average home, but I am confident that this will be improved sufficiently.

Solar panels are becoming almost a necessity with the capacity to store the excess electricity.

Anybody thought about the lithium mining? My son has worked in Chile and this is an issue there but we appear not to have noticed it. It's almost as if we're just swapping one ruination for another. There really is no easy answer to this.

The government have put in place net zero which will cost us trillions. The main protagonists, China/USA are not doing a great deal

No easy answer to this

There’s a fundamental question behind all this about the model of consumption and production that we now have, which is simply not sustainable,” said Riofrancos. “Everyone having an electric vehicle means an enormous amount of mining, refining and all the polluting activities that come with it.”

www.theguardian.com/news/2020/dec/08/the-curse-of-white-oil-electric-vehicles-dirty-secret-lithium

It doesn’t need to be a long time to get the infrastructure in place.

Norway has ensured that every household in Norway has access to charge an electric car.

All we need is the political will, but we will never get it from this shower.

Honestly, if charging points have got to us, you can’t be far behind even if you live in the Highlands. Bring them on as far as I’m concerned because we pay so much more for petrol in rural areas than they do in the cities, when we are the ones who can’t manage without a car because there is no public transport at all, not even one bus a week here.

I think there’s still a long way to go regarding electric cars etc but I welcome the fact that delivery companies are using them. But that doesn’t mean that electric cars aren’t the way forward. Anyway, it isn’t a policy that is being immediately implemented as it wouldn’t be good for the environment if we all suddenly scrapped our vehicles. But we can’t continue the way we have been can we. And it’s beyond me that there are still climate change deniers.

Gosh you’re lucky. The lack of them here was being moaned about in the local paper just last week.

You’d be surprised regarding charging points if you haven’t looked lately Germanshepherdsmum. I live in rural mid Wales, which has been the back of beyond for charging points, but even here there are now several within 5 miles of me - apparently there are almost 30,000 UK wide. I still wouldn’t get an electric car yet because it’s too mountainous to make it practical, I can’t get up to see my parents and back on one charge - but hopefully in the next couple of years batteries will improve further.

Trouble is Dinahmo, a lot of people’s homes don’t have somewhere to charge the car off-road, and even if they did it’s no use if your journey is longer than the car’s range and you have to try to find a charging point. People travelling to my area wouldn’t find one.

I bought a Honda CR V last year MaizieD. It’s a self-charging hybrid. Mr. B and I looked at the market, proposed legislation and our own needs before deciding this was our best option. We’re very happy with it.

Another has a Ford hybrid which is self charging.

I often wonder if hybrids should be the way to go at the moment. I wonder, in terms of fossil fuel usage, how the amount of petrol they use compares with the gas usage necessary to produce the electricity needed to charge all those electric cars?

We have 2 friends with hybrids and they seem very happy with them.

Germanshepherdsmum

Good post Rosie. I live in a rural area where charging points are non-existent. If I were to find one then judging by what I’ve seen elsewhere there would be a long wait to get to it. Our delivery people certainly couldn’t drive electric vans. I shall be driving my gas guzzler for a long time yet.

I think that one has a charging point at home and leave your car connected overnight. One friend has a Renault which does 300km when fully charged. Another has a Ford hybrid which is self charging.

Can I suggest that climate scientists go to China, Russia etc and have a word with them.

I agree, Brexit has done major harm to this country, because the government have not carried it out as promised.

But, it is the fanciful Green’s that are going to bring us to our knees.

Guy Martin did a test in an electric car, the results were abysmal, it was fascinating to watch.

So you are saying that the enormous changes that have happened over millions of years are not natural. What caused them then. Please ask your husband why when they give examples of climate change the from date is always different. Very selective use of data!

Another point is that when electric car manufacturers talk about the number of miles you can drive after a charge, that’s in perfectly ideal conditions.
Factor in the heating, air conditioning, lights, heated seats etc and the distance drops considerably.
Plus of course there’s the problem of finding a petrol station with enough charge points so that you don’t have to wait for one to become free, and a completely different picture emerges.

How are we going to be able to produce enough electricity to cope with all this?
How about the mining of the rare minerals needed in the millions and millions of car batteries needed if this insane idea comes into force within a few years?

Then there are the air and heat source pumps which we are expected to believe will keep us warm in the winter?

I have yet to read a single positive word about the things.
How ‘green’ is it to rip out and dispose of millions of perfectly serviceable gas boilers?
I’m sure others will have plenty of other examples of how misguided this plan is.
It’s the one thing I am most at odds with the government about.
Oh yes, we apparently contribute less than 1% of greenhouse gases, yet the biggest contributors such as China, Russia and the USA are never going to go down this route

It’s never going to work is it?

Good post Rosie. I live in a rural area where charging points are non-existent. If I were to find one then judging by what I’ve seen elsewhere there would be a long wait to get to it. Our delivery people certainly couldn’t drive electric vans. I shall be driving my gas guzzler for a long time yet.

Whitewavemark2

There is so much uninformed comment.

My sons car does 300 miles before needing charging. It can be fully charged in less than 30 minutes at a charging point. It’s drive is extremely impressive.

With regard to the argument that we can’t afford to follow a green agenda.

Why?

May I ask you name the make and model of your son's car with this impressive range and charge time so we can ascertain how affordable it would be to the average household? From those I've looked at not only can we not afford an electric car, but without a drive there is the problem of charging point availability.

Charging can be divided into
Slow - usually rated up to 3kW is mainly used to charge overnight at home or workplace. Takes 8-10 hours to fully charge.
Fast - rated at either 7kW or 22kW and can usually be found in car parks, supermarkets, leisure centres. Takes 3-4 hours to fully charge.
Rapid - typically rated from 43kW and found at motorway service stations, petrol stations, supermarkets. Takes 30-60 minutes to fully charge but is only compatible with rapid-charging function EVs.

I'm not at all against green measures and rules, but these do have to be compatible with and affordable by most people, not just a wealthy elite.

Frightening how in denial people are.

Whitewave I have come to the conclusion that nothing will happen until there is no other choice. I think the pandemic has shown that.

I suspect mass migrations that will result from climate change will just lead to us pulling up the drawbridge and voting in authoritarian governments. I think there is little we can do to stop it. Of course the worst of this will come when many of us using this site are dead, but we leave a mess for our children and grandchildren.

Yes I’m reading that now they’ve completely buggered the country over Brexit, more or less the same group of idiots with Steve Baker as the leader are turning their misguided attention to climate change.

From Richard Murphy's blog this morning:

As a result, a new line of attack is emerging. The claim is that it would be nice to have a future, but that we cannot afford it at present, and so we will have to forgo it. The nihilism inherent within this is all too obvious, except I suspect to those who are promoting it, who would appear to very largely be middle-aged men who are keeping their fingers crossed that they will make it through life before any of the consequences of their actions are really apparent.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2022/02/09/we-dont-have-a-cost-of-living-crisis-we-have-a-cost-of-resource-exploitation-crisis-as-people-are-priced-out-of-living-accommodation-energy-and-food-by-landlords-and-energy-companies/

I think that what I have highlighted is what we are seeing in the responses on this thread. Richard could have added and elderly people who are keeping their fingers crossed etc.

There are solutions available for the fuel price crisis that don't involve suspending efforts to mitigate climate crisis.
Like giving people a true and meaningful rebate on their energy bills.

Or a windfall tax on the enormous profits being made by energy companies on the back of global energy price increases. If they were only passing on necessary price increases to their customers they wouldn't be making huge profits, just reasonable ones in line with their past profit reords.

And investing in renewable energy instead of leaving it to 'the market', which is not interested in sustainable energy, just in profit taking.

There is so much uninformed comment.

My sons car does 300 miles before needing charging. It can be fully charged in less than 30 minutes at a charging point. It’s drive is extremely impressive.

With regard to the argument that we can’t afford to follow a green agenda.

Why?