Labour and Lib-Dems sign a non-aggression pact

Very exciting and making me feel so much more positive about the future.

As usual, the devil will be in the detail, but I agree that if this in one way to get rid of the current FPTP system then I'm all for it.

varian
Democracy = rule by the majority, not rule by the minority

I always think that Democracy is rather difficult to apply in practice. We have democracy in Westminster because the party with most MP's has the power. But often the largest party will have a lower popular vote than the second party. Even a PR system will have it's problems: nothing is perfect.

Plaid and Labour made a co-operation agreement last year.
I'm not so happy about that.

kittylester

Germanshepherdsmum

'The vast majority of people'. Where is your evidence for that statement? And I'm not talking about an opinion poll because we all know how they can be rigged.

Btw no-one is asking you to vote for the Conservatives 'at the moment'. The next GE is in 2024.

Good post!

DaisyAnne, I have thought this through! Do you recall all the other 'coalition' governments we have had.

The most productive and talented government of the twentieth century was a coalition.

See saw politics, from one extreme to another, and back again- just disastrous, distructive and very expensive.

Kali2

See saw politics, from one extreme to another, and back again- just disastrous, distructive and very expensive.

See saw is a good description. What happens is there is no continuity and no seeing projects through to the end.

PS. Germany, which has had coalition governments since the end of WW2, hasn't done too badly.

Yes when you live in a Labour stronghold that you have no chance of changing, I know what you mean. Works both ways. Still forever coalitions, which PR will possibly mean , are only workable if reasonable and fair minded for the whole country. The last one was a disaster, Conservatives to get a majority, Lib Dems for a grab at some power. Can’t see many of this lot of Parliamentarians, front benches I mean, working together.

I have always lived in Tory strongholds - so yes the same, at both ends.

It is time they learnt to work together for the better good.

Freya5

Yes when you live in a Labour stronghold that you have no chance of changing, I know what you mean. Works both ways. Still forever coalitions, which PR will possibly mean , are only workable if reasonable and fair minded for the whole country. The last one was a disaster, Conservatives to get a majority, Lib Dems for a grab at some power. Can’t see many of this lot of Parliamentarians, front benches I mean, working together.

Yes, it does work both ways. I've seen various estimates, but only the votes of a few hundred thousand people ever actually matter. That's why political parties try to identify them and try to bribe them with policies which might appeal - no matter whether those policies are good for the majority of the country. The UK really doesn't have a system which is meaningfully democratic.

Kali2

I have always lived in Tory strongholds - so yes the same, at both ends.

It is time they learnt to work together for the better good.

Which is what coalitions are forced to do.

Which is great. It will take some effort, as the UK is not used to work like this. FPTP was supposed to create 'strong' Governments- but it has resulted in very strong divisions, and the very expensive, chaotic, destabilising see-saw politics mentionned above. A disaster- time for it to go.

Without the vast contributions from the dodgy billionaires, Russian oligarchs and tax exiles who appear to bankroll the Conservative Party, the LibDems and Labour have to use their funds where they can be most effective, which means targetting. This is not the same as a pact.

This is the sort of distortion which can happen under Firdst Past The Post.

How can anyone claim we are a democracy?

You are forgetting Kali2 that the devolved governments in the UK do work in this way already, with some seats appointed through proportional representation, and regular shared power arrangements between the parties. It works reasonably well.

varian

Without the vast contributions from the dodgy billionaires, Russian oligarchs and tax exiles who appear to bankroll the Conservative Party, the LibDems and Labour have to use their funds where they can be most effective, which means targetting. This is not the same as a pact.

It really is time that the parties were state funded. John Major was supporting that idea in his speech last week.

However much politicians might swear that paying for access to ministers, huge donations and freebies don't influence them it is very hard to believe them.

It seems to me the same sort of situation as when people swear that they are not influenced by advertising. But companies wouldn't spend £millions on advertising if they didn't think it was money well spent.

I think it is appalling. Each party should stand on its principles and those of the Liberal party and Labour party are very different.

I have never voted for either of the 2 main parties and find it difficult to envisage a situation where I ever would. If I was unfortunate Labour candidate, I would effectively be disenfranchised and would be reduced to spoiling my ballot paper.

The lib Dems have been in coaltion with Conservatives and it nearly destroyed the party. Now they are being stupid enough to do it with the Labour party. The result will be exactly the same, the victory of Labour and the further marginalisation of the Lib Dems.

I think a Labour government would be as disastrous for the country as a Conservative government, not in the same way, but that doesn't make it any better.

I notethat those most in favour of this event are Labour party supporters. I wonder why?

It’s not a power sharing agreement Monica, so I’m not sure what you mean? There are plenty of seats where the Lib Dems are the second party to the Conservatives, mine included, and if they get the Labour vote as well in those constituencies they will end up with more MPs. There’s no obligation to anything more than that.

There are plans going through Hoc at the moment ref boundary changes, this reflects the change on movement of population.
If the planned ones come into play, Scotland and Wales loose seats and the South East gain.

Yes, but if cordially loathe both parties, but are prepared to vote Lib Dem, faced with one of these stand downs, you are effectively being disenfranchised.

Labour must be delighted at the thought of getting into power by disenfranchising a whole slew of voters by taking their full choice of political parties from them.

Why is it always assumed that at heart Lib Dem voters are really Labour voters at heart and feel happier with Labour voters.

There are a lot of us that think both major parties are equally contemptible and would never vote for either.

I would hope they've thought about that scenario MOnica. In practice, it doesn't matter if you're a LibDem voter, but it's decided that a Labour candidate has a better chance and there's little campaigning for the LibDem.

The LibDem wouldn't have won anyway, so the voter would have been wasting his/her vote. He/she might choose not to vote, which doesn't matter anyway because it was a wasted vote, but those who do grit their teeth and vote Labour could tip the balance and return a non-Tory.

The LibDems have a target list of constituencies anyway and put all their efforts into supporting the candidates they think most likely to win.

In my case, it's unlikely the huge Conservative majority will be overturned. I have never voted for a winning candidate and I have always thought my vote is wasted, so I'm disenfranchised. Neither LibDem nor Labour puts much effort into winning round here, but it would be good if one of them did.

Just don’t vote if you feel like that Monica. I don’t hold much candle to the Lib Dems myself, but I’d rather see a Lib Dem MP in my constituency than a Tory nonetheless, and that is our choice where I am - I think each of us has to decide what is the lesser ?, and for me that would be a continuation of the existing government.

I mean the continuation of the existing government would be worse - our Lib Dem MPs in the past have been good constituency MPs even though I don’t agree with all their national policies. Our current Tory MP is us, not from the constituency, never here, knows nothing about the area and always votes with the government, so it couldn’t get much worse.

Germanshepherdsmum

What makes you think Angela Rayner is suitable wwm? Other world leaders tend to have had an education and not call one another ‘scum’. She’s an embarrassment as soon as she opens her mouth - or ‘gob’ as she would probably say.

Still an improvement on the Trump-alike we have now.

So we have a PM who talks about "spaffing", which I expect you know means ejaculating, has had an education which was a waste of money when the outcome is considered and is totally inarticulate, unless he has a script ... hmm.

Exactly, growstuff. Not to mention the racist insults he throws around like sweeties.