Julia Hartley-Brewer v Stella Creasy

DaisyAnne

Why do you need to keep telling us about your career GSM? I don't know as much about anyone else's and can't remember anyone else going into such detail. I have got the idea from a few that their jobs gave them insight into the issue being discussed but I don't have such in-depth knowledge of anyone else's CV.

You did brilliantly. Well done.

As for my personal life, that's what it is and that's how it stays but I wouldn't be as arrogant to think my experience was mine alone.

If you castigate me but share nothing of your own experience, simply spout vitriol, how can I take you seriously?

volver

Sorry GSM, but the myth that if you just do your job well and follow the rules then you'll get the recognition, that doesn't work in real life.

But it continues, sadly volver.

Can we just have a conversation? Maybe a heated one, but without name calling or insinuation?

I'm away for a cuppa.

volver

Sorry GSM, but the myth that if you just do your job well and follow the rules then you'll get the recognition, that doesn't work in real life.

How strange that I achieved what I did then.

Why do you need to keep telling us about your career GSM? I don't know as much about anyone else's and can't remember anyone else going into such detail. I have got the idea from a few that their jobs gave them insight into the issue being discussed but I don't have such in-depth knowledge of anyone else's CV.

You did brilliantly. Well done.

As for my personal life, that's what it is and that's how it stays but I wouldn't be as arrogant to think my experience was mine alone.

Its about making it easier for working mothers to get jobs that suit their talents.
So what if their talent is driving a bus or a long-distance lorry?

The H o C is a workplace which runs on archaic male dominated lines. No-one is asking for toddlers running around. The paired system often breaks down when no-one can be found willing to pair. What's wrong with remote voting? Or allowing maternity cover? Those banging on about their own experiences and how wonderfully they overcame difficulties is unhelpful- what we need is to bring the H of C into the 21st century.

I would like to know whether volver and Daisy had children and if so what work they did when their children were small. I’ve shared my own experience. Would either of you, who are enjoying telling me how behind the times I am and generally criticising my attitude, care to share?

Oh, I see fingers are on report buttons!

I made no personal attack on anyone so there was no reason for my post to be reported or deleted.
And I never knew b*llox was banned on GN.

Welcome back DaisyAnne
How sweet that your new name rhymes with your old username.

Fingers on buzzers ...............
I'll have to hurry you
No conferring
???

Sorry GSM, but the myth that if you just do your job well and follow the rules then you'll get the recognition, that doesn't work in real life.

Daisy, conflating the need to be realistic about work opportunities for a while if you choose to have children with staying with domestic abuse is frankly ridiculous, though I did in fact experience both at the same time. Did you?
Making the choice to have a baby is not ‘being treated like cattle’, and tailoring your career so far as you can to the responsibility to that baby which you have taken on by making that choice, is not turning yourself into a second class citizen who ‘lacks agency’. I became a partner in a top City law firm at a point when that was compatible with family life - not exactly second class or lacking in agency was I? And by working towards that without making a big song and dance about how hard it was I didn’t queer the pitch for younger women coming up behind me.
Your sort of rhetoric doesn’t advance the cause of women in what remains a male dominated workforce. Earning respect by doing the job rather than loudly banging the drum does.

Exactly volver. However, if you leave it to the employer there will be a very varied offering. We all benefit, from parents being parents and from parents working. We should all be contributing, via tax, to a system that gives parents equality with those who are not.

Can we just highlight again that this is not about wanting to take your child with you while you are driving a bus or delivering a baby?

Its about making it easier for working mothers to get jobs that suit their talents.

I've no idea why people think that's a bad thing. And no, I don't have any babies. But I worked for decades in a variety of different work situations, mainly male oriented, and saw the improvements in child friendly policies over the years. Anyone in the places I worked who said that child friendly policies were not required would have been laughed out of the room.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Germanshepherdsmum

‘^She’s trying to make things better for everyone ^.
It doesn’t work like that. Employers are less likely to take on women with, or who they perceive are likely to have, children if they are forced into providing flexible hours and crèches. Women who quietly get on with things and prove their reliability do a much greater service to other women than those who kick up a fuss and demand change. The one thing they will never change, unless they are brilliant scientists, is the fact that women get pregnant and have babies. Men don’t.

Yes, yes it does work like that.

Many years ago I was asked at a job interview if I was planning on having children. It wasn't illegal then, it is now.

By the time I had finished working, we got anonymised CVs for job applicants so that we didn't discriminate against women of child bearing age.

Women with children are no less reliable than women without. It's a shock to me that women in this day and age can write such a thing.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

I'm laughing at the thought of my meddlesome toddler going into work with me!!

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Callistemon21

^Why do women attack women who want equality?^

I did suggest that her husband could gt a desk job with better hours.

Parents need to compromise if they want to have children.
Children deserve better.

Spot on.

Anyone saying otherwise either doesn't have children

Most women would be horrified if they had to take their baby to work with them.

Imagine if the UN General Assembly had babies clutched to their mothers during these extremely serious times

And what next? What about the mums who keep feeding? Do we have toddlers dancing around in the workplace?

Callistemon21

^Why do women attack women who want equality?^

I did suggest that her husband could gt a desk job with better hours.

Parents need to compromise if they want to have children.
Children deserve better.

But why wouldn't you think the state (us) that benefits from the education and work of parents, should support them?

Good lord GSM, would you give the same advice to women suffering domestic violence? Put up with it and adapt. Why should women agree to be second class?

I would agree that we should not be asking companies to provide childcare. We should provide it free from 1-3. This would make a huge difference to women who may be coping as a single person too.

I case you haven't noticed women no longer have to put up with being treated like cattle producing the next generation. A low birth rate is a big problem for the richer countries - and so it should be until people stop thinking women's opportunities should be limited by the production of children.

Callistemon21

No trisher

Yes, it is her job, her voice.
If it is so important to her and to the country and her husband's jo is too they need to get a nanny as they can afford it.

Other women on salaries like hers employ nannies so that they can go to work and concentrate fully on their job while they are there.

What about children's rights?
Children deserve better than this.

If you don't understand that it isn't just about her and her baby but about a system that actively discriminates against women and that one of the reasons that system still exerts power is because the main source of power in the country is completely male dominated then you just don't. Her having a nanny would do nothing for anyone. Her taking a baby to a 1 am debate draws attention to the male privilege which still operates our government.
As for the rights of the child. The baby is warm, safe, close to his mother and his food source. Which right exactly is he being denied?

Very true Callistemon.

Why do women attack women who want equality?

I did suggest that her husband could gt a desk job with better hours.

Parents need to compromise if they want to have children.
Children deserve better.

‘^She’s trying to make things better for everyone ^.
It doesn’t work like that. Employers are less likely to take on women with, or who they perceive are likely to have, children if they are forced into providing flexible hours and crèches. Women who quietly get on with things and prove their reliability do a much greater service to other women than those who kick up a fuss and demand change. The one thing they will never change, unless they are brilliant scientists, is the fact that women get pregnant and have babies. Men don’t.