Julia Hartley-Brewer v Stella Creasy

Germanshepherdsmum

Yes, I’d love my tax to be increased to fund such a worthy cause.

This was the attitude of many when compulsory schooling was introduced. Funny isn't it no one would question it today. (also roads, rubbish collection, libraries, health care- in fact practically every service provided nationally or locally has been opposed on exactly those grounds)

Coastpath

It's about how that system excludes talented, qualified, passionate people from serving society as MPs purely because they have childcare responsibilities.

Do we want to lose their contribution because we are stuck with a system designed in the last century for men with London clubs and a wife in the country overseeing a nanny?

Exactly this.

It's unreasonable for any employer to expect staff to be available round the clock. The vast majority of working parents provide childcare cover for the time when they expect to be out of the house at work with an hour or so either side to allow for unexpected eventualities, but nobody should have to pay for care all night on the off-chance that they might be called in.

It's maddening that it is always women who have to make these points, when children have two parents. If more men took responsibility for their offspring it would become normal for people to say that they can't make it into work at 1.00am (unless it is a pre-arranged nightshift), and therefore for employers to stop asking for idiotic levels of compliance for their staff. As has been said, votes can be registered online these days, Zoom calls can replace in-person meetings and so on. It just takes a tiny bit of imagination to make the workplace more flexible, and it seems to me that a refusal to do so is deliberate intransigence.

You can’t always avoid appalling working hours Doodledog. If for instance a lawyer is involved in a deal with a deadline it has to be met. And if the deal involves for instance people in the US then they always insist that you are contactable when they’re working, they rarely compromise. How would you propose to deal with that sort of situation? That’s exactly the sort of work that a woman with young children would seek to avoid, as I did.

Callistemon21

Chardy

MP on maternity leave votes against vile bill designed to limit the people's right to protest, presumably representing her constituents.
Do other women support this stance? Apparently not all women.

I thought it was stated on this thread that MPs don't get maternity leave?

I can understand the reasoning behind that.
Unless there was a bi-election it would not be democratic.

MPs are entitled to 6 months maternity leave. But they have to be physically present in the House to vote and they are finding it difficult to find funding to provide a proxy to meet with their constituents during that time.

By the way, if even Raab thinks something needs to be done and people are still holding out, that must be reason for reviewing their stance, I'd say.

Deputy Prime Minister Dominic Raab said he had "a lot of sympathy" for Ms Creasy, MP for Walthamstow, and politicians needed to make sure "our profession is brought into the modern world... [so] parents can juggle the jobs they do with the family time they need".

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59396801#:~:text=While%20MPs%20are%20entitled%20to%20paid%20maternity%20leave,represent%20constituents%27%20views%20during%20Commons%20debates%2C%20for%20example.

Yes - reform the voting system and allow maternity cover not just tell women to stop whingeing. There was an MP recently who had to delay her C Section because she had to vote and no one would pair with her.

I chose not to express, loathed it. During the months when mine were solely breast fed they were with me.
During may leave i was asked to attend a court hearing where my evidence was needed. That baby was weeks old she came with me, colleagues looked after her. Chair of the bench ensured if necessary the bench would rise for however long needed
That’s flexibility. I could have refused but why would I
I could give more anecdotes but the key is to support families, particularly breast feeding mothers - even those ‘making a point’

Callistemon21

Chardy

MP on maternity leave votes against vile bill designed to limit the people's right to protest, presumably representing her constituents.
Do other women support this stance? Apparently not all women.

I thought it was stated on this thread that MPs don't get maternity leave?

I can understand the reasoning behind that.
Unless there was a bi-election it would not be democratic.

I had a vague recollection that the law was changed to enable Suella Braverman to take maternity leave and carry on as a minister.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55933388

Stella Creasey has appointed Kizzi Gardiner to run her constituency office
www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/16/kizzy-gardiner-stella-creasy-first-locum-mp-maternity-cover

And she has tried to keep up with HoC business and voting, as this thread and criticism shows.

I can remember having to take children into work when I had a child care crisis, they were about 4 and 5, I put them behind a desk with colouring books and chocolate buttons. They were great No, not every workplace could be so accommodating, but theres no reason why those that can, like the HoC shouldn't .
I think the Suella Braverman case was a one off, and didn't entitle any more MPs to maternity leave. Goodness only know why.

Germanshepherdsmum

You can’t always avoid appalling working hours Doodledog. If for instance a lawyer is involved in a deal with a deadline it has to be met. And if the deal involves for instance people in the US then they always insist that you are contactable when they’re working, they rarely compromise. How would you propose to deal with that sort of situation? That’s exactly the sort of work that a woman with young children would seek to avoid, as I did.

Most professional roles involve deadlines, but generally they can be met by working outside the office. I regularly worked late, but did it at home when the children were in bed.

For the last 20+ years it has been easy to have a drive on a workplace IT system that can be accessed from anywhere, and that is what most people did when things got pressurised. Email and so on reaches the US, so deadlines can be met and on the desk of the client on time wherever they are physically and in whatever timezone.

Why should it be mothers of young children who should avoid such roles? Children have two parents (whether or not they live together) and there is no reason why women should be the only ones to have to make choices between work and home life. I know that not all fathers are co-operative, but that should not be used as a stick with which to beat women. Bringing a small baby into a workplace in order to cast a vote is a very small 'ask', and shows flexibility from the mother, who is, IMO, not being remotely unreasonable to expect it back.

Try doing that when it involves phone calls or video conferencing at US times Doodledog and you’re commuting, not wfh. Email is the easy bit. I fear you’re theorising rather than speaking from experience of the sort of work I’m talking about. You absolutely can’t do it and give proper care for a baby. The baby doesn’t ask to be born and shouldn’t have to suffer for the sake of its mother’s ambitions.

That's what they used to say about mothers who worked outside of the home.

Callistemon21

Germanshepherdsmum

Yes, I’d love my tax to be increased to fund such a worthy cause.

The subsidised bar is probably open!

I thought that too!

You are so right Germanshepherdmum, no child should have to suffer for their parents' ambitions. With family friendly systems, flexibility and provisions, this need never be the case.

In my opinion, supporting a young family where both parents are serving their country, in this instance he in the armed forces and she an MP, is exactly the sort of thing we're paying taxes for. If there was better childcare provision for nurses the recruitment bill for the NHS would fall.

Millions of pounds of taxpayers money is spent each year on sending children of army officers to public schools. This so that the children shouldn't suffer as a result of their parents' jobs. How is childcare any different?

inews.co.uk/news/education/eton-harrow-army-officers-children-taxpayer-144767

Anniebach

How do women paramedics, women police officers , women
doctors manage

Badly.
Have you not seen all the posts about the ‘part time GPs’? Apparently women having babies re the reason we have a GP shortage crisis…

Galaxy

That's what they used to say about mothers who worked outside of the home.

I note that fathers are allowed ambitions.

But women must put them aside

And hire 24 hour care or use their mothers that way.

Gosh these women really are ghastly aren’t they? Having babies and actually expecting to feed them? And have a job? Whatever happened to the wet nurse and mums calling on the neighbours for a nice cup of tea and a bit of crochet?

latchaid.com/breastfeeding-in-the-uk

Uk rates of breastfeeding worst in the world…

Not like it’s been shown to be the best thing for mother and baby or anything…

But that silly women is just trying to make a point and should leave the baby with a bottle right?

Callistemon21

^as I have already said, someone was looking after the other child^

There was nothing difficult about expressing breast milk and leaving bottles and nappies so that carer could look after the baby too.
I looked after a very tiny DGD (and an older toddler) when DIL was away and DS was ill. DIL expressed and left bottles in the fridge.

Stella Creasy is making a point; it may be a valid one but that is what she was doing as it wasn't strictly necessary to take the baby into work with her.

Using her unique type of very well-paid career with lucrative expenses to make a point about all working mothers isn't the best example we could use.

Did you know that many can’t express? Have you any evidence for your sweeping statement? Did you know that volumes of expressed milk are markedly less? Did you know that many babies who are alley BG won’t take a bottle? Do you know anything about the physiology of BF and all the important facets it brings? Sound a lot like ‘I did it so they can too’

DOI prev Obs and gynaecology consultant. Lots of interest in the role of breastfeeding

Sorry fully BF

LadyWee

Callistemon21

as I have already said, someone was looking after the other child

There was nothing difficult about expressing breast milk and leaving bottles and nappies so that carer could look after the baby too.
I looked after a very tiny DGD (and an older toddler) when DIL was away and DS was ill. DIL expressed and left bottles in the fridge.

Stella Creasy is making a point; it may be a valid one but that is what she was doing as it wasn't strictly necessary to take the baby into work with her.

Using her unique type of very well-paid career with lucrative expenses to make a point about all working mothers isn't the best example we could use.

Did you know that many can’t express? Have you any evidence for your sweeping statement? Did you know that volumes of expressed milk are markedly less? Did you know that many babies who are alley BG won’t take a bottle? Do you know anything about the physiology of BF and all the important facets it brings? Sound a lot like ‘I did it so they can too’

DOI prev Obs and gynaecology consultant. Lots of interest in the role of breastfeeding

I know all that.
DOI prev Obs and gynaecology consultant. Lots of interest in the role of breastfeeding
Good grief !

Thanks anyway for the information which you could have expressed in a much more pleasant way.

I did it so they can too

Oh, how I could have done with you with DC1!!
You might have been able to diagnose what was wrong.

However, you probably weren't born then.

How on earth did my son survive, having only ever been bottle fed?

Germanshepherdsmum

How on earth did my son survive, having only ever been bottle fed?

That was your decision Gsm but breastfeeding is not only the best for baby it can be easier as well. Expecting someone to feed their baby a certain way to fit in with archaic and patriarchal systems is wrong, it doesn't matter if the expectation is bottle feeding, expressing or any other method. The choice is the mothers and every effort should be made to provide her with the support she needs to carry out her choice.

Germanshepherdsmum

How on earth did my son survive, having only ever been bottle fed?

My DC1 might have become iller and iller had I not changed her to formula milk.

And if one isn’t able to breast feed? Why do you assume it was my decision?