Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

Why, in God's name would they do that?

Can’t improve on your answer Doodledog, so I’m just endorsing what you said.

Why, in God's name would they do that?

Because it makes them look 'kind'? A lot of things done in the hope of virtue-signalling are actually harmful to the people being 'helped'. Giving food to alcoholic beggars, which they won't eat because they are past the stage of getting calories from food, for instance - it makes a good shot for Insta, but is likely to attract rats, and leaves the beggar with less money that he could have spent on a bed for the night (or even a drink that would keep DTs at bay).

MOnica, I’m another tomboy who in today’s climate, and with less sensible parents could have been persuaded by age 10/11 that I wanted to be a boy. I identified of course with George in the 5 books. I played with boys, and remember telling mum I wish I was a boy because they have more fun. She advised me to take the best of being a boy and the best of being a girl and enjoy life
Like MOnica I changed schools frequently, not army but similar. We were always ‘different’ got skilled at appearing unbothered by being outsiders. We developed resilience. Life was not smooth but it wasn’t the kind of pressure children are exposed to now

I completely agree with your observations regarding poor mental health amongst children and adolescent Iam64 and this has been massively exacerbated by the social isolation caused by the pandemic. But that has to lead me to the question: knowing just how badly affected that particular demographic have been in respect of mental health difficulties, why would those, who claim to hold young people's wellbeing so close to their hearts, seek to validate, escalate and magnify their problems to a point that long term irreversible harm is undertaken? Why, in God's name would they do that?

trisher No, self harm never ever occurred to me, partly I suspect because I was considered an all round oddity. I am dyspraxic, that has been diagnosed, almost definitely I have ADHD and I also had an awkward and difficult bowel condition that led to a lot of bullying.

My approach to it, from a very young age, and it was noticeable enough for the doctors to comment on it, was never to make a bad situation worse by reacting in a way that would make life yet more difficult. So I just hunkered down, and made the best of it. Fortunately I was constantly changing school, so I always had the knowledge that in a year's time iIwould have moved on, until I was 11 and like most army brats went to boarding school. By ten I had developed a lot of resilience and also had the good fortune to meet a kindred spirit, who was as subversive as I was - and we remain close friends to this day.

Smileless2012

It's hardly surprising though is it Doodledog when you're accused of transphobia by stating the biological fact that a man can't be a woman.

True. People are accused of transphobia by people who define the term in their own way, but are unable to define the concept of the very things that transpeople want to transition into. Bonkers.

There is more self harm amongst adolescents and children than when MOnica and most of us were children. There are more mental health problems and as we know, services have been run down so badly, it’s difficult to get treatment for children with suicidal thoughts.
We don’t know enough about the increase in children who are in distress about gender. We’ve had increasing division in clothes and toys marketed at infants, toddlers and primary age children. It’s still nurses outfits aimed at girls, doctor’s kits at boys. Children are being sexualised. Add a pandemic and the rise in mental health problems is no surprise.

You make some very good points M0nica and yes, I agree that what we always termed as "a tomboy" when we were children, would now have you sat in front of a gender dysphoria panel discussing if you wanted to begin a "gender reassignment journey". My bestie is a primary school teacher and has seen an increase of pupils, predominantly girls, saying that they're a boy. But once they've been referred onto counselling, not one of them has, so far, continued with it after their first session. She's likened it to the phase of mass fainting in schools that happened in the 90s. But with far more serious, and longer lasting, consequences.

It's hardly surprising though is it Doodledog when you're accused of transphobia by stating the biological fact that a man can't be a woman.

I don't think you are transphobic at all, from what you posted, Luckygirl. In fact, you sound liberal and concerned for the well-being of young people. I think it is a shame that you need to ask yourself if you have a deep-seated fear of a group of people because of a campaign that has left people confused about what transphobia means.

Just been catching up with this thread and there are some great, informative and well balanced posts, and so much information.

That's very interesting Rosie and is another example of how facts can and often are skewed to suit a particular point of view and IMO if the effects of puberty blockers are for the most part reversible so this not always being the case, even more important that extreme care is taken before they're prescribed.

trisher The effects of puberty blockers are for the most part reversible

Puberty blockers administered for precocious puberty are administered for a short while. They are used to delay puberty that is starting in a girl under 8 or a boy under 9. They would normally be stopped around those ages or within a year or so after those ages. That's when the effect is reversible, and the child then begins their normal puberty.
When people quote the "they've been used for decades" this is the use they are referring to. They have not been used for decades for older adolescents.

I read the Cass report, thanks SueDonim and 100% agree that the GIDS clinic at the Tavistock clinic isn’t fit for purpose. I can't help but worry that, in time to come, it will be a national scandal that so many children have been poorly advised and mentored and that horrendously damaging and irreversible drugs have been pumped into them. It's a ticking time bomb.

From the cass report there seems to be inadequate collection of data to say anything with such certainty with regards to the treatment of young people. I am sure the report is wrong though.

For the most part. That’s nice trisher.

M0nica I wonder did you ever consider self harm when you were a "tomboy" because that is the recourse of some who are uncomfortable with their body and their assigned gender. That's one of the reasons puberty blockers are given Luckygirl3 because if the alternative is a child who attempts to change his or her body by doing potentially damaging things which leaves scars it is much better to delay the development which bothers them and allow them a space to explore. The effects of puberty blockers are for the most part reversible

SueDonim thanks for the link to the report. It is quite horrifying, the damage that has been done in the name of being ‘woke’ or ‘forward thinking’ or ‘kind’.
Reading M0nicas post above is a good way of looking at it. Wanting to be the opposite sex as a child has been around for years-even George in Enid Blyton’s books expressed that feeling.
Using chemical or physical medical treatment to make that a reality before children and teenagers really understand the possibly irrevocable consequences is dangerous.
Some people, refusing the Covid Vaccine because they don’t know the potential future effects, will happily endorse the chemical or physical transgender treatment of children.

I really do worry about children be given hormones before they are fully independent.

I spent most of my childhood wanting to be a boy, i even knew what name I would go by. I was described as tomboy, I preferred playing with boys to girls and was happiest in their company.

In the 1950s the concept of saying 'I am a boy' was beyond any belief.

However as I grew through adolescence, it was clear that my body was very comfortable being female, even if my mind was less convinced. As it happened both my choice of university degree and the industries I worked in were predominantly male and I was very comfortable working in a predominantly male environent and rarely had any problems.

It frightens me to think that if I was a teenager now, this ambivaelnce in me could be taken over by those who might see my dichotomy and encourage me to see myself as a boy and take drugs that irrevocably would change my body for ever. What adults do is diffeent.

As I have said, gender is a social construct, all I needed as a child was for my behaviour and preferences to be entirely acceptable and not defined by my sex.

SueDomin, thanks for the link to the Cass report. It’s been summarised or referred to a number of times on the trans threads. It’s an interim report but is clear that the GIDS clinic at the Tavistock clinic isn’t fit for purpose. It confirms the concerns raised by professionals and those of us dismissed as gender critical, that the starting point of accepting a child wants to change gender is dangerous.
Many of these young children have complex mental health problems, are neuro-diverse. The focus on gender has been omitting a more through assessment of attachment, family relationships, trauma etc.
I’ve seen no response to the report from the posters who support early medical / hormone and other treatments for children

It's only when you won't make any space for trans people that you are transphobic.

Or if you ignore the increasing attacks on trans people because of the way that these issues are discussed.

Or if you aren't open to finding solutions so that we can all feel safe and included.

Or if you refuse to use peoples preferred pronouns.

Or if you point at trans people and say they look too much like the gender they were assigned for birth.

Or if you think bring trans is not valid or they are mentally ill.

Or if you think the existence of trans people is somehow an attack on women..

Etc

It depends who you ask on here Luckygirl, but no I don’t think what you want makes you transphobic.

Luckygirl worrying about that doesn't make you transphobic

I'm with you on all that Luckygirl3.

I think that young people should be allowed to dress as they wish and be as they wish. But I do not think that puberty blockers should be given - does that make me transphobic? - who knows?

I think that a person's gender identity is entirely their choice, but do not want people with penises in women-only spaces or sport - does that make me transphobic? - who knows?

I think that if we all just let people be who they want to be and pursue what are regarded as gender-specific behaviours, dress etc. then we would all be much happier; but I do not think that individuals who choose the behaviours or dress of opposite to their biological sex should have special provisions made for them - they should just be what they want to be and we all just get on with life together - does that make me transphobic? - who knows?

My biggest concern is to protect the young from pressure to be someone other than who they feel they are. I want freedom about how they want to be as regards gender not to become an either/or choice, but to give them the space to explore what is right for them without criticism or discomfort. But I want them to be protected from taking irrevocable steps that they could potentially later regret. Does that make me transphobic? - who knows?

The Observer had a very good opinion piece about young people and gender identity. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/20/observer-view-cass-review-gender-identity-services-young-people?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other