Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

You really don't like women, do you?

Is there any need to make personal comments? Can't we stay focused on the topic rather than resorting to personal insults?

I’ve had a look at the M and S thread. Didn’t find it amusing - feel disappointed

FarNorth

Imagine that every female person and male person could present themself however they like, without any reference to 'cultural norms'.
Wouldn't that be a nicer, kinder thing to aim for?

It would be so much simpler all round, but then the autogynephiles wouldn’t be able to get off on ‘passing’ as women, so don’t hold your breath.

volver

Anyone been over on the M&S thread?

Its a hoot.

I didn't realise the model was supposed to be male. I just thought it was an ugly dress.

trisher

Doodledog I know lesbians who have been abused and pressurised by other lesbians who were not transwomen. The reason women's refuges began risk assessing was because they realised some women were dangerous. Does this mean all women are? of course not. Anyone whatever their sex, whatever their gender forcing anyone to have sex, or abusing or threatening them, in an attempt to intimidate them, is wrong. But it isn't limited to transwomen and not all transwomen are abusive and threatening. There are threatening and abusive people about but we don't avoid everyone because of them.

It’s a convenient get-out to always say that because some women are [insert behaviour of choice] no women should be protected from that behaviour, isn’t it? You apply it to violent criminals, sex offenders and now lesbians. You really don’t like women, do you?

Anyone been over on the M&S thread?

Its a hoot.

3nanny6 For what it's worth I think your GC is very lucky to have those who are open minded in their life and the only advice I could or would give is to do exactly as you are doing now.
I hope that one day, people will just be able to express themselves however they like without any negative perceptions or pre-judgment.

FarNorth

Imagine that every female person and male person could present themself however they like, without any reference to 'cultural norms'.
Wouldn't that be a nicer, kinder thing to aim for?

Well, that's the end goal isn't it?

So what happens if trans people still exist and want the physical features they weren't born with?

Can we accept them then?

We're going down the rabbit hole now. Blaming people for medical wait times.

Imagine that every female person and male person could present themself however they like, without any reference to 'cultural norms'.
Wouldn't that be a nicer, kinder thing to aim for?

If the person calling themselves a trans woman has full male genitalia they are not a trans woman they are a man in a dress until such time they have fully transitioned and had gender reassignment surgery
If that isn't blame I fully apologise. I suppose you could call it prejudice. But it doesn't really matter what you call it. It's judgemental and it's judgemental about something the transwoman has absolutely no control over.
A litte sympathy for the long waitong list might be in order

Try to imagine that we were only allowed to be women after we had lived as one for a period of time, taken a course of hormone altering medication for a period of time and then undergone major surgery under risk of infection, rejection of transplanted tissue or even death.

That's called empathy

Now some of us women never start periods, never grow breast tissue, grow facial hair, go through early menopause, have mascaline features, cannot conceive a child and all sorts of other problems.

Women. Every single one. Unless they state otherwise.

trisher

GG13 the waiting lists for gender clinics are huge. Here's a link gic.nhs.uk/appointments/waiting-times/. You will see they are currently offering first appointments to people who contacted them in 2017. Is it really fair to blame a transwoman because she can't getthe treatment she needs?

trisher where did I apportion blame?

How is GG's post blaming a transwoman who is having to wait for the treatment needed?.

FWIW GG I agree with you, a man does not become a transwoman until the transition is complete.

GG13 the waiting lists for gender clinics are huge. Here's a link gic.nhs.uk/appointments/waiting-times/. You will see they are currently offering first appointments to people who contacted them in 2017. Is it really fair to blame a transwoman because she can't getthe treatment she needs?

This is going to be unpopular but hey ho.

I have got absolutely no problems with a fully transitioned man (after gender reassignment surgery) calling themselves a trans women. They will never be a woman, always a trans woman due to their biological make-up (DNA, chromosomes etc)

If the person calling themselves a trans woman has full male genitalia they are not a trans woman they are a man in a dress until such time they have fully transitioned and had gender reassignment surgery.

trisher

^And, what is dating anyway? If sex is not going to be involved, then it's just a meet-up^
But we often use the expression "It's a date" at least my friends and I do and it's nothing to do with sex just a meeting.

Yes... "it's a date then" is an expression I and my friends have used when agreeing to a meet.

But we're splitting hairs here.

What kind of 'date' do you think Nancy Kelly had in mind when she said this:

"Sexuality is personal and something which is unique to each of us. There is no right way to be a lesbian, and only we can know who we are attracted to."

Doodledog I know lesbians who have been abused and pressurised by other lesbians who were not transwomen. The reason women's refuges began risk assessing was because they realised some women were dangerous. Does this mean all women are? of course not. Anyone whatever their sex, whatever their gender forcing anyone to have sex, or abusing or threatening them, in an attempt to intimidate them, is wrong. But it isn't limited to transwomen and not all transwomen are abusive and threatening. There are threatening and abusive people about but we don't avoid everyone because of them.

You can mock, and make stupid jokes about First Dates, but yes, lesbians do find themselves accused of transphobia when they reject transwomen sexually. Hi ho ho.

I don’t mean on a date to Betty’s tearooms followed by a walk in the park - I’m talking what amounts to meet-ups for sex. I know women who have been verbally abused and physically threatened when they have said that they fancy women, not transwomen, despite the fact that sexual attraction is a very personal thing.

The fact that clearly the posters who bang the drum for trans rights over women’s rights have no idea that this happens is telling, in the same way that because they haven’t been told to display a pronoun in a professional situation it can’t be true that others have had to do so and shows the depth of their awareness of the things they so vociferously support, and ‘back up’ with comparisons to the 1970s and earlier, when life was very different from today.

And, what is dating anyway? If sex is not going to be involved, then it's just a meet-up
But we often use the expression "It's a date" at least my friends and I do and it's nothing to do with sex just a meeting.

Rosie51

Of course dates can be just friends going out with someone and having a nice time, but let's not pretend that was what Nancy was referring to. She was definitely referring to dating potential sexual partners, the statement was made in reply to lesbians objecting to being pressured to dating and having sex with transwomen. I'm sure lesbians could happily be friends with transwomen and go out on 'dates' with them. I don't tend to use the word date when I'm going out with friends or family. My adult children refer to 'date night' as being without kids enjoying some romantic time together.

You have made the point I was trying to make, succinctly. Mine was a bit laboured.

Thank you!

Hello Dee1012 and thank-you for sharing the experience of your relative and how they described to you their feelings of what went on for them before they actually made the changes and lived how they wanted to.

I am interested to ask that question as I have a GC that openly shows their happiness and enjoyment of not being interested in wearing clothing that would be "conventional"
for their gender and prefers clothing for the gender they were not born as. The toys the child likes are also toys that are more associated with a different gender. At first I just thought it is only a phase and did not even give it much thought and did not make a big thing out of it. The child is going to school now and wears the dress code for the gender they are and loves school, but when they are at home reverts to different dressing which the mother is okay and comfortable with that. I brought the subject up in a completely normal way in regard of my GCs choices only because I was trying to understand better what could be going on. My GCs mother then appeared to get stressed so I firmly shup up and have said nothing since. My GC has not reached puberty yet and is still some way off from that.

I was also taken aback by another family member who is heterosexual but has always liked the company of several of her gay men friends and would never hear of anyone saying anything at all about her friends she told me oh why can't you buy the child some barbie dolls and stop being prudish.
All I wanted was to try and understand better that was all and I did have an open mind. That's it really so I will just wait and see how GC progresses.

Why is dating only to do with sex? Couldn't it just as well be an opportunity to have a nice time, go somewhere with a new person, chat to someone. Will every single encounter end in sex? It doesn't usually. Someone I knew who was using a dating agency said she what she really wanted was someone to do nothing with, just hang out. If sex happens, it happens, it isn't the sole purpose.

trisher

I don't think Nancy Kelly mentioned having sex with anyone, simply dating them. She also mentions disabled and other groups. She didn't say people had to date anyone just that if you ruled out a whole group of people you might want to look at your bias. If it is OK to say you'd never date a transwoman would it be OK to say you'd never date a woman with cerebral palsy?

I don't think Nancy Kelly mentioned having sex with anyone, simply dating them.

But she did preface her comment with this, "sexuality is personal", and further go on to say "only we can know who we are attracted to"

She may not have explicitly mentioned having sex with anyone, but the implication is there, surely? Do people date those they are not attracted to?

And I certainly have not ruled out a "whole group of people". As I said, I might not have met the 'right' overweight man - because attraction to another is about more than their physical appearance.

I've never dated anyone with cerebral palsy... but I have dated someone who was disabled. His disability was secondary to the fact I found him attractive.

And, what is dating anyway? If sex is not going to be involved, then it's just a meet-up - which most of us presumably do with people from various demographics.

Being attracted to someone is subtle, many can't even put their finger on why one particular person attracts them and another doesn't. I have found men attractive whom other women have grimaced over when shown a photo'. They have shown me photo's of handsome fellas who leave me cold.

But then, I have never looked at people in groups to decide whether I would date them or not. It simply just 'happens'. Someone comes along, and there's a spark. That person could be from any of the groups mentioned, including the overweight, if that hazy and indefinable characteristic that attracts is there.

trisher

But even if I was looking for a sexual partner there are people who you could go on a date with, get on really well with but in no way see them as a sexual partner. It happens all the time on First Dates.

If you were looking for a sexual partner would you not want to go on dates with the sex category you found attractive? If you're a heterosexual woman wouldn't you look for a sexual partner amongst men, but if lesbian a sexual partner amongst women? Why would you look for a sexual partner by dating people of the sex you don't find sexually attractive?