Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

Sorry - that should have been 'identify'. I knew it was wrong as I typed it ?

Can you define 'discrimination', trisher?

Isn't it a bit like equality, in that applying exactly the same rules to all does not result in fairness?

There are times when it makes sense to discriminate - eg putting age limits on the age of consent, or giving maternity leave to new mothers. Doesn't housing transmen in female prisons come under that? It is perfectly 'fair' to say that prisoners should be housed by sex - regardless of whether they are male or female or of how they 'define'.

Rosie51

^And they have caused no harm to anyone.^ Most men don't cause harm to anyone, but still we find it desirable to exclude them from certain areas of female life. There is the question of privacy, dignity and comfort of females. My husband and sons would absent themselves from any areas that could possibly cause discomfort to a female. That's because they're decent human beings. Any male who wouldn't absent themselves from these areas needs further examination.

But these have been transgender since the 1980s and have used women's facilities without any attacks or any complaints. So it can be done. It has been done. Regrettable as the recent attacks may be they do not show the full picture which has been peaceful and accepting.

So do you think transmen should be placed in male prisons for exampe trisher?

I think its probably up to men t express their views on that issue, I have seen many gay men express concerns about women in their spaces, dating sites etc.
No feminist I know would think it a good idea for transmen to be placed in male prisons

FarNorth

^Their downfall comes of course when transmen are taken into account. Because transmen identify as men, but must according to the male/female argument be classed as female and use female facilities.^

If a transman passes as male and wants to use the male facilities, the only possible danger is to themselves so it's up to them if they want to do it.
I haven't heard anyone say that transmen must use female facilities.

Transmen in prison are not housed with men, however, because of the risk to themselves.

But is that really fair FarNorth if someone is asking for single sex facilities shouldn't that apply to all single sex facilities. So transmen might prefer to use the male facility (just as transwomen would prefer to use the female) but as they are female, should be using the female. Otherwise it's just plain discrimination.

But that is applying logic and common sense, FN.

Rather than a doctrinaire approach, that is.

Their downfall comes of course when transmen are taken into account. Because transmen identify as men, but must according to the male/female argument be classed as female and use female facilities.

If a transman passes as male and wants to use the male facilities, the only possible danger is to themselves so it's up to them if they want to do it.
I haven't heard anyone say that transmen must use female facilities.

Transmen in prison are not housed with men, however, because of the risk to themselves.

*no one I know has ever claimed women are all female.*

Gosh trisher you do come out with some corkers!

Absolutely! All decent men would do the same - whether or not they are trans - and particularly if they would cause no harm to anyone - it is the harmful ones who’d be more likely to force themselves into places where they make others feel uncomfortable.

And yes, trisher. Of course I know that actors are real people ?. But what you see on screen is not real. Here is the late Heath Ledger before and after make-up (and the ‘before’ shot is not exactly candid).

Rosie51 and Mollygo, same in my family and friendship group.
By causing harm, I’d anyone seriously suggesting that the 200 trans activists demonstrating against the feminist meeting in Manchester didn’t intend to harass, threaten and stir up anxiety? That’s causing harm. Demonstrate of course but don’t threaten women who have a different point of view

Rosie51
. . . and they have caused no harm to anyone.
Most men don't cause harm to anyone, but still we find it desirable to exclude them from certain areas of female life. There is the question of privacy, dignity and comfort of females. My husband and sons would absent themselves from any areas that could possibly cause discomfort to a female. That's because they're decent human beings. Any male who wouldn't absent themselves from these areas needs further examination.
Males in my family would do the same as your husband and sons, and for the same reason you give.

And they have caused no harm to anyone. Most men don't cause harm to anyone, but still we find it desirable to exclude them from certain areas of female life. There is the question of privacy, dignity and comfort of females. My husband and sons would absent themselves from any areas that could possibly cause discomfort to a female. That's because they're decent human beings. Any male who wouldn't absent themselves from these areas needs further examination.

Doodledog

trisher

So now what you seem to be saying is that transwomen can't be idenified providing they have the right sort of make up and styling. Which means if they do the work you won't know.

Jeez.

No. I am saying that TV is not the same as real life. If the story called for the characters to be vampires, that is what they would be. Or zombies, or anything else called for by the plot.

TV drama is not an example of how transpeople are not usually identifiable as such. It is an example of what happens in that particular story.

But the actors are trans in real life Doodledog and I don't believe you would know which are or aren't trans. They live ordinary lives as transwomen. They don't dress up or pretend to be anything. Actors are real people you know.

It's also based on real events by the way.
Thinking about when it is set the people it is based on lived their whole lives as transpeople,they'll be in their 60s and 70s now. And they have caused no harm to anyone.

Doodledog

Trisher, do you honestly think that in most cases people can't tell someone's sex - regardless of how they are dressed?

You don't have to be actively scrutinising or looking for 'anomalies', but when you see transpeople on University Challenge, or on the bus, in the pub, or anywhere else, you can tell.

In most cases all that happens is a fleeting thought - possibly instinctive - that something doesn't look quite right, then you realise and carry on watching TV, drinking your drink, reading on the bus or whatever else you were doing. It doesn't matter, and it's not important, but people can tell, no matter how much you protest otherwise.

As for the idea that everyone finds transpeople frightening - it's just not true. As has been said over and over. It is not 'ordinary' transpeople who give any pause at all - it is the ones who try to silence women, who force their way into things, who want to change the language, to cheat at sport, and so on. They are the ones people complain about. They spoil things for the transpeople who just go about their lives, as well as for female athletes, women from sex-segregated cultures, female prisoners, vulnerable hospital patients and so on.

I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.

This is what I said. Note the bit that points out In most cases all that happens is a fleeting thought - possibly instinctive - that something doesn't look quite right, then you realise and carry on watching TV, drinking your drink, reading on the bus or whatever else you were doing. It doesn't matter, and it's not important, but people can tell, no matter how much you protest otherwise.

It doesn't matter, and it's not important. It's a fleeting thought. But ignore that, and drone on and on about trans spotting, and judgement, and try to trip me up by suggesting that I am some sort of obsessive.

I'm losing track of the numerous threads on this topic tonight, but if anyone had any doubts about who goes on the attack in these discussions, or who is trying to make it so difficult to post anything for fear of having it twisted into something offensive, they can see the truth for themselves.

There are whole forums dedicated to trans people asking if they "pass"

They give each other advice

Sadly this is often asked so they can engage in the world safely

A lot of the time, I'd say they pass and I wouldn't look twice

But then if I did I'd sort of be judgemental about other people's appearance randomly squinting at people and given how diverse we are I could be very wrong

trisher

So now what you seem to be saying is that transwomen can't be idenified providing they have the right sort of make up and styling. Which means if they do the work you won't know.

Jeez.

No. I am saying that TV is not the same as real life. If the story called for the characters to be vampires, that is what they would be. Or zombies, or anything else called for by the plot.

TV drama is not an example of how transpeople are not usually identifiable as such. It is an example of what happens in that particular story.

The Emperor's New Clothes

So now what you seem to be saying is that transwomen can't be idenified providing they have the right sort of make up and styling. Which means if they do the work you won't know.

Mollygo are you going to take back what you said?

I'm tired of being told that personal attacks don't happen only to be ignored when I point out something that states an untrue fact about my thoughts/feelings

My GD’s expertise in stage and ordinary make up even made me willing to be photographed. A team of experts working on actors are paid to do that job.

Actually trisher I think you’ll find that posters are more concerned about those who make no effort to disguise the “sex assigned to them at birth”, but still claim to be women and demand access to areas or sports provided for females, for nefarious purposes. (Thus adding lies to their other evil doings.)

trisher

Doodledog

I've seen it. But people in a TV drama are made up, lit and generally shown to be the part they are playing, aren't they? Film makers are very good at assisting us to suspend disbelief.

Real life is rather different.

Some of the actors are transgender in real life Doodledog. They are not instantly recognisable as such.
But I'm sure you have both said that transwomen are instantly recognisable. Are you now agreeing that many of them aren't?

No. I'm saying nothing of the kind. I'm saying that the actors (transgender or otherwise) are made up to look beautiful (and they are), which is not the same as real life. Even I could be made to look presentable if I had a team of make-up artists and good lighting to work with.

This is such hard work at times.

Let's hope that whole statement is retracted then

Mollygo

What worries me is when posters appear to think TW harming women is funny.

So now someone does think it's transwomen harming women. I thought we all accepted it wasn't. (Be careful Mollygo your phobia is showing)

Mollygo

What worries me is when posters appear to think TW harming women is funny.

If you mean me, that's a completely awful thing to say to say to me and I hope you have the grace to take it back.