Gender? Sex? Help me out please.

What worries me is when posters appear to think TW harming women is funny.

Goodness, I can't remember a time bing out an about where I looked at anyone and suspected they were trans..

Which is odd given that this could be 1% of the population

It used to be train spotting

Now we have trans spotting lol

Mollygo

The best comment from trisher so far. (Worth a screen shot!)

Trisher says That'sfunny because no one I know has ever claimed women are all female
Trisher , there is no proof of what the people you ‘know’ say. They could say anything and we wouldn’t ‘know’. So that leaves you free to say something which may or may not be true.

So what have we been saying on here?
Oh I forgot, you don’t really ‘know’ anyone on here. So you don’t have to count what any other posters say.

By the same token, I don’t know anyone who says transwomen are women, or who say women don’t need safe spaces, but there’s lots of them on here.
Only the people who amend language to suit their purpose say all women aren’t female. Transwomen Are Transwomen!

Transwomen are male.

Women are female.
Only females can be women.
Women are all female.
Women who aren’t female are not women.

Now go ahead and say you don’t know anyone who would say that!????
Good one trisher!

Just one comment What about transmen?
Sssh we don't talk about them!

The best comment from trisher so far. (Worth a screen shot!)

Trisher says That'sfunny because no one I know has ever claimed women are all female
Trisher , there is no proof of what the people you ‘know’ say. They could say anything and we wouldn’t ‘know’. So that leaves you free to say something which may or may not be true.

So what have we been saying on here?
Oh I forgot, you don’t really ‘know’ anyone on here. So you don’t have to count what any other posters say.

By the same token, I don’t know anyone who says transwomen are women, or who say women don’t need safe spaces, but there’s lots of them on here.
Only the people who amend language to suit their purpose say all women aren’t female. Transwomen Are Transwomen!

Transwomen are male.

Women are female.
Only females can be women.
Women are all female.
Women who aren’t female are not women.

Now go ahead and say you don’t know anyone who would say that!????
Good one trisher!

Doodledog

I've seen it. But people in a TV drama are made up, lit and generally shown to be the part they are playing, aren't they? Film makers are very good at assisting us to suspend disbelief.

Real life is rather different.

Some of the actors are transgender in real life Doodledog. They are not instantly recognisable as such.
But I'm sure you have both said that transwomen are instantly recognisable. Are you now agreeing that many of them aren't?

I've not seen it, but trisher, the fact that a few transwomen may pass without a second glance doesn't prove that all or even most transwomen pass. The transwoman in "The Crying Game" was indiscernible from a natal woman until they showed their penis. That is the exception, most definitely not the rule.

I've seen it. But people in a TV drama are made up, lit and generally shown to be the part they are playing, aren't they? Film makers are very good at assisting us to suspend disbelief.

Real life is rather different.

Doodledog

Trisher, do you honestly think that in most cases people can't tell someone's sex - regardless of how they are dressed?

You don't have to be actively scrutinising or looking for 'anomalies', but when you see transpeople on University Challenge, or on the bus, in the pub, or anywhere else, you can tell.

In most cases all that happens is a fleeting thought - possibly instinctive - that something doesn't look quite right, then you realise and carry on watching TV, drinking your drink, reading on the bus or whatever else you were doing. It doesn't matter, and it's not important, but people can tell, no matter how much you protest otherwise.

As for the idea that everyone finds transpeople frightening - it's just not true. As has been said over and over. It is not 'ordinary' transpeople who give any pause at all - it is the ones who try to silence women, who force their way into things, who want to change the language, to cheat at sport, and so on. They are the ones people complain about. They spoil things for the transpeople who just go about their lives, as well as for female athletes, women from sex-segregated cultures, female prisoners, vulnerable hospital patients and so on.

I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.

Watch Pose Doodledog I challenge you to identify the transwomen in it.

On the sporting issue I saw a video of transwoman Caitlyn Jenner being interviewed, in which she said Lia Thomas shouldn't be in women's sports. As a former sportsman I think Caitlyn would have some knowledge about sporting fairness. The interviewer raised that Caitlyn had been invited to participate in a women's golf event but had declined saying it wouldn't be fair. Caitlyn said even with no testosterone advantage she had not lost her power, strength and build and would be able to hit the ball 100 yards further than any of the women. Now that's being a true sport.

Trisher, do you honestly think that in most cases people can't tell someone's sex - regardless of how they are dressed?

You don't have to be actively scrutinising or looking for 'anomalies', but when you see transpeople on University Challenge, or on the bus, in the pub, or anywhere else, you can tell.

In most cases all that happens is a fleeting thought - possibly instinctive - that something doesn't look quite right, then you realise and carry on watching TV, drinking your drink, reading on the bus or whatever else you were doing. It doesn't matter, and it's not important, but people can tell, no matter how much you protest otherwise.

As for the idea that everyone finds transpeople frightening - it's just not true. As has been said over and over. It is not 'ordinary' transpeople who give any pause at all - it is the ones who try to silence women, who force their way into things, who want to change the language, to cheat at sport, and so on. They are the ones people complain about. They spoil things for the transpeople who just go about their lives, as well as for female athletes, women from sex-segregated cultures, female prisoners, vulnerable hospital patients and so on.

I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.

Chewbacca

Just to let you know MollyGo I both read, and speak Mandarin.

Seriously impressed!

FarNorth

I posted this on another topic and I think it applies here too.

'I think people support an ideology that is likely to harm them because they lack imagination and can't conceive of their own situation being threatened.
I'll always be all right, Jack.'

The implication there is that we're too dim to work that out.

Rather than just seeing things differently. Which is a bit insulting really.

Mollygo

FarNorth
The government equalities office has come out with some rubbish, by the way, because of its confusion about what sex and gender are.
Yes (Sighs?‍?) Sometimes I wonder whether they’ve been reading what’s here on social media. There’s a few confused posters who think saying you’re a woman makes you female.

That'sfunny because no one I know has ever claimed women are all female. But there have been quite a few people who only recognise certain people as women. Their downfall comes of course when transmen are taken into account. Because transmen identify as men, but must according to the male/female argument be classed as female and use female facilities. The result is of course people of a masculine appearance in female spaces and I can't understand why anyone who is fearful of men would find a transwoman frightening, although she looks like a woman, rather than a transman who looks like a man. As for loos well a man could just walk into the ladies and say he's a transman.

Doodledog I don't know what sort of premises you frequent but most of the places I know have pretty strict security in all places and anyone male, female, or trans will be ejected if they cause any bother. There are even women security officers now some of whom deal with stroppy women and some who actually throw men out. Gender neutral doesn't mean dangerous anymore than women means safe.
So we need to wait until someone 'causes bother' before they are asked to leave? Until my friend's attacker was actively attacking her he hadn't 'caused bother'.

There have been female security officer for a long time - my daughter was one when she was a student. I'm not sure of your point there, really.

FarNorth
The government equalities office has come out with some rubbish, by the way, because of its confusion about what sex and gender are.
Yes (Sighs?‍?) Sometimes I wonder whether they’ve been reading what’s here on social media. There’s a few confused posters who think saying you’re a woman makes you female.

I posted this on another topic and I think it applies here too.

'I think people support an ideology that is likely to harm them because they lack imagination and can't conceive of their own situation being threatened.
I'll always be all right, Jack.'

even women security officers. Just imagine that, in 2022.

anyone, male, female, or trans will be ejected if they cause any bother. Doodledog friend was sexually assaulted, luckily another woman saw what was happening so called for help. Phew, that’s all ok then

VioletSky

This is what the government equalities office has to say

I can't remember which thread it's meant to go on

"the sex in which they present"

How much presenting does someone have to do?
Skirt & make up means person is a woman? And is still the case along with a beard?
Flat cap & pipe means a man, maybe?

What if the skirt & beard person goes into the men's?
Should they be corrected for that?

(Don't bother telling me about pcos. )

The government equalities office has come out with some rubbish, by the way, because of its confusion about what sex and gender are.

Doodledog

trisher

As no-one can tell by looking who is trans I can't see that it would be a problem. Of course a transman using the ladies might worry them a little but I suspect you weren't thinking about them.

People can very often tell by looking, trisher. What people do in those circumstances is weigh up the odds that the person who is using the female loo when they are male is likely to be a threat, and the odds are that they won't be. If they smile, or make friendly small talk, or generally behave as most women do in those semi-social situations, most of us would respond in kind and think no more about it. That's fine - live and let live, and it all happens almost subconsciously anyway.

If, on the other hand, they stroke their beard, leer and make a lascivious comment and they are in a women's loo, there is the opportunity to get security or someone to have them evicted. In a so-called 'gender neutral' one, however, women would just have to put up with it. And I don't care if that doesn't happen often - once is too often. I have posted before about a friend who was sexually assaulted in a pub Ladies room. Luckily another woman came in, saw a man in there, and got help before my friend was raped. In a 'gender neutral' space who knows what might have happened.

Doodledog I don't know what sort of premises you frequent but most of the places I know have pretty strict security in all places and anyone male, female, or trans will be ejected if they cause any bother. There are even women security officers now some of whom deal with stroppy women and some who actually throw men out. Gender neutral doesn't mean dangerous anymore than women means safe.

My grandson got pretty good at Mandarin, I'll ask him when I see him tomorrow.

Chewbacca

Just to let you know MollyGo I both read, and speak Mandarin.

Then you’ll appreciate exactly what I meant Chewbacca! ??

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202203/medium-153503-screenshot-20220325-213611.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202203/medium-693602-screenshot-20220325-213550.jpg

This is what the government equalities office has to say

I can't remember which thread it's meant to go on

Just to let you know MollyGo I both read, and speak Mandarin.

trisher

As no-one can tell by looking who is trans I can't see that it would be a problem. Of course a transman using the ladies might worry them a little but I suspect you weren't thinking about them.

People can very often tell by looking, trisher. What people do in those circumstances is weigh up the odds that the person who is using the female loo when they are male is likely to be a threat, and the odds are that they won't be. If they smile, or make friendly small talk, or generally behave as most women do in those semi-social situations, most of us would respond in kind and think no more about it. That's fine - live and let live, and it all happens almost subconsciously anyway.

If, on the other hand, they stroke their beard, leer and make a lascivious comment and they are in a women's loo, there is the opportunity to get security or someone to have them evicted. In a so-called 'gender neutral' one, however, women would just have to put up with it. And I don't care if that doesn't happen often - once is too often. I have posted before about a friend who was sexually assaulted in a pub Ladies room. Luckily another woman came in, saw a man in there, and got help before my friend was raped. In a 'gender neutral' space who knows what might have happened.

As no-one can tell by looking who is trans I can't see that it would be a problem. Of course a transman using the ladies might worry them a little but I suspect you weren't thinking about them.