P & O Ferries - 800 workers fired.

You are right about me not condemning the Russian people. Indeed, this current event has given me insight into how the German people could "believe" such a skewed view of history and how difficult it must have been to accept the reality.

It scares me enough to check where what I am reading comes from and to keep checking the facts. One thing that gives me comfort is hearing the BBC reporters say "we haven't been able to verify ... " it means I can believe what they have been able to check.

Very interesting Maizie. I'll re-read it a couple of times. I think we all hear and know these things but bringing them together changes the picture somewhat, doesn't it.

But many of the 'I'm alright Jack' people will not be "just fine", Growstuff. The propaganda may tell them so but the work of the New Right Conservatives over 40 years tells us differently.

This government is pursuing exactly what Thatcher set out for them. Those who laud her must believe they are "rich" enough to benefit from that New Right neoliberal ethos. New Right theory sees inequality as natural and desirable. Any model of society which accepts all people as equal would make this extreme view of right-wing economics impossible to put in place.

These ideas and theories emerged in Britain from 1979 onwards. It attempts to fundamentally re-structure the postwar welfare state. The New Right Conservatives have never had more power than they had after the Brexit vote; the power they have been consolidating for 40 years. Johnson sees himself as the person to do this and therefore write himself into history.

Those who believe the attempts New Right Conservatism has made to convince voters of their kind-hearted concern for a reasonable level of social and welfare provision are, if we accept the 40-year trajectory, going to be very disappointed. I can only think they each believe they are the one person in the world whose savings and investments will never go down, that they will never be ill, never need care and never have family members that need these things or are out of work.

DaisyAnne

I suppose, FarNorth. The trouble is they take the rest of us with them. Looking at how it is possible to brainwash a whole nation (Russia) I suppose we shouldn't be surprised if some believe the unbelievable.

Interesting that you mention Russia, DaisyAnne, because what maintains the apparent consensus in Russia is not only brainwashing, but also an overwhelming show of force. In fact, I think it's the force more than the brainwashing. The Russian people are being terrorised into compliance.

It's happened throughout history, the power elites have always been afraid of the of 'the masses' turning against them and depriving them of their control and won't hesitate to use force as their ultimate weapon.

I was living in Doncaster during the miner's strike. Travelling south to visit relatives we passed positive armies of police being bussed north to subdue the strikers. Importing police who had no connections with the communities which might cause them to be less 'assertive' with the strikers they were being sent to control.

IMO the Police and Crime bill currently (and shamefully) being passed through Parliament with virtually unlimited police powers to arrest demonstrators on the flimsiest of excuses with draconian sentences for those found guilty of the 'offences' outlined in the Bill is an expression of the fear of the ruling party living in fear of dissent. Will it cow UK dissenters in the same way that Russians are cowed? The police are certainly not averse to putting on a show of force. Look at the squads of riot police rushed to the scene when a few protestors occupied the house belonging to a Russian oligarch...

I feel it's dangerous to appear to be condemning the Russian peoples for allowing themselves to be 'brainwashed'. (Which, I hasten to say, is not what I think you are doing)

What's always worth checking? TBH I found that comment a tad patronising. Maybe we should start a thread on what you meant by a compensation culture.

Yes, I do maintain we've all been warned - and not just in the Guardian. I just happened to find that article. For the last ten years (or so) it's been obvious to those who looked what kind of state we're heading towards. And - yes - the 'alright Jacks' will be just fine.

I suppose, FarNorth. The trouble is they take the rest of us with them. Looking at how it is possible to brainwash a whole nation (Russia) I suppose we shouldn't be surprised if some believe the unbelievable.

I think people support an ideology that is likely to harm them because they lack imagination and can't conceive of their own situation being threatened.
I'll always be all right, Jack.

growstuff Sat 26-Mar-22 03:20:35

I didn't say we are in danger of turning into a "compensation culture" Growstuff so I am not sure why you put it in quotes. Always worth checking

A compensation state is nothing to do with using the law - although I suppose some might use a lawyer as a mediator. It can only happen in an autocracy or an elected autocracy - think India, Singapore, etc. It is where the ability to pay overrides the law.

You say, when quoting the article in the Guardian, that it is not as if we haven't been warned. For the last decade or so I would guess that people will have been warning on this forum and elsewhere not just in newspapers. The New Right want an elected autocracy. One way of achieving that is to stop protecting workers; make them more afraid they can, at the drop of a hat, lose their job and thus lose their homes and families in some cases. This is exactly what they want to happen and have told us it is what they intend to do. What I cannot understand is that so many support them who will not themselves, or their families and friends, benefit from this type of government.

From my perspective, I don't want a Far Left Government either. Extremes of left and right are not far from each other and either can turn away from democracy to get what they want under the wrong leader.

FarNorth

I think that's a good suggestion DaisyAnne.

Thank you

We can't say we weren't forewarned. The Guardian published this article ten years ago:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/aug/22/britannia-unchained-rise-of-new-tory-right

I don't think we are in danger of turning into a "compensation culture", which I have always understood to mean suing (and often being successful) for the slightest wrong.

The issue is whether people believe that others have a right to a secure job or whether workers are merely a factor of production, who can be hired and fired in the same way employers buy in other required resources. It's quite evident that many in the current Conservative Party believe the latter. People have a value on their heads depending on the amount of profit they can generate.

It's highly unlikely that the current government will do anything meaningful because it suits their agenda to have a flexible and powerless workforce. "Britannia Unchained" (a book written by Liz Truss, Kwasi Kwarteng, Dominic Raab and others) asserted that "The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music."

Employment laws themselves need changing because currently employers aren't breaking the law if they compensate their employees. The trouble is that the compensation rates are derisory and can be factored into restructuring costs, which is what P&O has done.

Grant Shapps is in a panic about P & O because it appears that he did know that something was on the cards at the end of 2021, but did nothing. He says he's going to introduce something next week, but I doubt very much whether it will have any clout.

Ironically, the CEO of P&O has been honest about what the company has done. He knew that using legal procedures would take time, so he used existing law to get his own way. I have little doubt that the case will be used as justification to scrap the meagre amount of protection workers currently have, so they would end up in an even more precarious situation than they are now. This is libertarian economics in practice - and what Conservative Party supporters voter for.

I was aware I was talking about a future law growstuff. I am reasonably familiar with current employment law. However, it might stop turning us into a compensation state if it came in.

Obviously, with the rich elite ruling, they will think that all that is needed to a payout. It's what they do when life gets a bit difficult. My hope was that, if my suggestion could be brought in, it would go some way to limiting such behaviour.

You're talking about what we "could" or "should" have, but the fact is that we don't have that kind of law enforcement. P and O have done what hundreds (maybe thousands) of other employers do. They've offered compensation, which they hope the sacked employees will accept because the alternative is even more painful. They could wait months until cases come up before an employment tribunal. The tribunal won't offer them any more than P and O already has and it's extremely unlikely they'll be reinstated. The amount employment tribunals can award is capped anyway, unless discrimination for a protected characteristic is proved. Meanwhile, the employees won't have any income because the compensation will be witheld. Sacking people isn't a crime, so the employers won't get a criminal record.

I think that's a good suggestion DaisyAnne.

growstuff

I don't know if you've ever been involved in a case for unfair dismissal, but workers are hardly ever reinstated. The law is on the side of employers who are willing to pay the fines. The only solution would be to increase the fines to prohibitive amounts.

I understand what you say. However, we could have a jail sentence for a flagrant disregard of the law. I am surprised there isn't a general sentence available for knowingly disregarding any law, in the knowledge you can buy your way out.

It's is a bit like the difference between murder and manslaughter where murder, being deliberate, has higher sentences available to the court. It wouldn't need to be any longer than it needs to be for someone to get a criminal record.

I think there is probably an argument against this. I would be interested to hear it.

And for those who still don't get it, one of the reasons the right want Brexit was to tear up employment laws which they considered stifled business.

I have a fantasy that everybody who works for bad employers would walk out, refusing to go back to work until their conditions and pay are improved. It is just a fantasy before everyone tells me how stupid I am.

Yes, it's horrendous - I agree. I don't know whether most people realise how little protection they actually have from rogue employers. It's all very well having laws which supposedly protect employees, but unless employers are really punished for treating people badly, they'll continue to get away with it. They see paying compensation as an investment if they can then employ people on worse terms and conditions.

Yes, my DH was in just such a case involving P&O. He eventually got compensation.

As this is affecting so many people, and the boss has immediately admitted that he deliberately acted illegally, it is horrendous that he has got away with it.

I don't know if you've ever been involved in a case for unfair dismissal, but workers are hardly ever reinstated. The law is on the side of employers who are willing to pay the fines. The only solution would be to increase the fines to prohibitive amounts.

I didn't know what had happened so here's a link for anyone else who doesn't know.

news.sky.com/story/p-o-bosses-did-not-consult-before-sacking-800-staff-because-no-union-would-accept-the-proposal-12573997

The law should have forced him to reinstate the workers & negotiate, imo.

I bet that smug boss didn’t take a pay cut ( £375,000 per year).

Unfortunately, this kind of thinking isn't that uncommon. People think they are protected by the "law". However, unless the fine is prohibitive, employers will find a way of buying their way out of respecting the law.

Pity the bite was taken away from unions.

The boss said today that he knew P&O actions were illegal by not talking with the unions, but he would still do it again if he had to. No doubt he will get a nice fat bonus on top of his big fat salary. Shame on him.

I can't believe this just got worse

Just how entitled do you have to be to decide that you will break the law because it suits you and you can afford the fine.

I am stunned.