I think this will happen more and more

Mollygo

You’re right FarNorth, it’s not. Do we have any figures for transmen taking part in competitive sport or for transwomen taking part in competitive sport before they were allowed to call themselves women?

There's the non-binary Canadian footballer who elects to play on the women's (female) team which is entirely allowable since Quinn is biologically female.
I actually don't understand why non-binary comes under the trans umbrella. Trans is transitioning, changing to the other, but non-binary is staying as you are but rejecting a binary classification, or am I misunderstanding non-binary?

On the subject of transwomen in sport I can't find it now but I did read about a cyclist who put off their transition to a transwoman until after their cycling competitive days were over. They said it was a hard decision, but they felt it was a fair one. Given I admired her for doing that I could kick myself that I can't recall the name, and googling just brings up Emily Bridges or Veronica Ivy.

Yes I think the numbers of current athletes prepared to speak out in the last few days has been encouraging.

I hope Mara Yamauchi is right about this.

You’re right FarNorth, it’s not. Do we have any figures for transmen taking part in competitive sport or for transwomen taking part in competitive sport before they were allowed to call themselves women?

As someone already said, female people who want to relieve their gender dysphoria by taking testosterone thereby disqualify themselves from female sports.
They can choose to leave sport or to make the best of it in male sport.
Why is the same not true for male people?

(Testosterone-lowering drugs don't reduce their levels to anywhere near those of women.)

So who might want to be in the open category?
Maybe only trans people.
So, transwomen i.e. male people who may or may not be taking testosterone-lowering drugs and transmen who may or may not be taking testosterone supplements and, either way, are unlikely to have much chance against the transwomen.
It's not sounding too good, so far.

What stands in the way of that do you think?

Hmmm, that's a hard one. You could start with FarNorth's post of 11.44

I don't think for one minute that failing to make the top 500 in the men's division was at all in Lia Thomas's mind when they made the decision to transition and subsequently became number 1 in a women's category of swimming. Lia wants to go to the Olympics, something that couldn't even be a pipe dream as a male, but as a transwoman.... well Lia's already beaten 3 female Olympic medallists in the latest NCAA swimming championship.

volver

Interested to know where we think this boxer should complete.

www.espn.co.uk/boxing/story/_/id/31662608/boxer-patricio-manuel-transgender-pioneer-looking-next-fight

Don't want to get into an argument but would boxing not be a sport that could incorporate trans people.

I am no expert but there are categories in boxing e.g. lightweight, featherweight, heavyweight etc. It is a one on one sport that would give more equality based on those categories. The article says that boxers can refuse to fight their opponent if they so wish - or did I misunderstand that.

Sarnia

All sports need to include a category for athletes who cannot compete in male or female events. This is the only way it will be fair to everyone.

Yes, male, female and open would fit the bill in different ways.
1. In the open category, no one need mention either sex or gender.
2. No need for testosterone reducing drugs or other doping.
3. The open category might initially have only have two or three competitors, raising the chances of winning a gold medal. Though I feel that would change and the number would increase when observers noticed that opportunity to shine.

What stands in the way of that do you think?

Sarnia

All sports need to include a category for athletes who cannot compete in male or female events. This is the only way it will be fair to everyone.

Would you allow the transmen to take testosterone, as otherwise they'd still be barred from sport?

All sports need to include a category for athletes who cannot compete in male or female events. This is the only way it will be fair to everyone.

FarNorth

Exactly Mollygo
I forget that the terms can be confusing and they sometimes need clarification.

I read somewhere that's exactly why they were chosen!

Exactly Mollygo
I forget that the terms can be confusing and they sometimes need clarification.

Thanks for the link FarNorth

It says it all.

Sport is performed by human bodies which are one of the two sexes – male or female. Sport is not performed by identities; we don’t, for example, have categories based on religion or voting preference.

Many male advantages cannot be changed at all, such as larger skeleton, skeleton shape and a larger heart and lungs. In the words of sports scientist Dr Ross Tucker “once testosterone has done its work during male puberty, it cannot be undone”.

In other words, the current campaign to allow trans athletes to compete in the category of their gender identity, in practice, benefits males only (and that comes at the expense of females who are excluded from their own category).

Females not permitted to take testosterone supplements will never be able to compete on an equal footing with men, so transmen have to make a choice between continuing with their sporting ambitions in the female class or having an effective transition. That is fair for females but not males? Tells you everything you need to know. This whole policy is by men for men, and women as usual should shove up, shut up and put up.

FarNorth

Transmen who are not on testosterone can continue to take part in females' sports, and some do that.

That’s because transmen are female.

Transmen who are not on testosterone can continue to take part in females' sports, and some do that.

Why should 'gender identification' be any different?

*Because a male person may lose a little ability, making him drop back in his male sport
*Because a male person ranking poorly can suddenly become a much-lauded winner
*Because some male persons like the idea of claiming to be a woman
*Because, in addition, some male persons like the idea of inserting themselves where female people don't want them to be

None of those are good reasons to allow male persons in females' sports.

As more athletes begin to speak out, here is an interesting article :

"For example, the Tokyo men’s marathon qualifying time was 2:11:30, but the women’s world record is 2:14:04 – no female would ever come close to qualifying. Even on testosterone (which is banned under the WADA Code in and out of competition), we know from doping female athletes of the past that doping makes females perform better than non-doping females, but nowhere near as well as males."

athleticsweekly.com/blog/asking-for-fairness-1039954658/

Doodledog

Oh yes, where sex is irrelevant there is no need to include it. I don’t have the expertise to say which sports that would apply to, but would happily defer to the opinions of independent experts.

which sports that would apply to Very few! And I think they already are mixed sex, sailing is another one. Any extras that are to be brought into that category would need transparent evidence by truly independent experts that sex differences have no impact.

Cartoon in Private Eye's latest issue. So mixed species soon?

Oh yes, where sex is irrelevant there is no need to include it. I don’t have the expertise to say which sports that would apply to, but would happily defer to the opinions of independent experts.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202203/medium-876082-f39ad2b4-44d2-4420-a2fa-1f7e5152f76e.jpeg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202203/medium-397334-1958738e-ecf9-432f-b3c8-6c06495816bd.jpeg

Competition should be graded by biological sex absolutely, except in those few areas where sex of the individual is irrelevant. Equestrian events have always been mixed sex since it has no bearing on the skill of the rider.
You have to wonder why sports have been sex segregated if there is no advantage to males who've gone through a male puberty. Maybe it was just for aesthetics as in the uniforms required? Compare and contrast the official uniform requirements for beach volleyball for instance.
Are transmen who take testosterone allowed to compete, surely that counts as doping? I don't remember ever seeing a case of a transman medal winner, or hearing of a natal male being denied his place on a team, or in an event, having been ousted by a transman.

I don’t think he cares about womens rights or transpeople.
Pretty accurate!

I think Johnson as usual has seen a political opportunity, its one of his few skills, he knows what a woman is anf also knows labour look weak on it, whats not to like for him. I dont think he cares about womens rights or transpeople.

Galaxy

From what I understand sajid javid is going to do an interview on sport today, stressing the importance of biological sex. Labour will be unable to comment because they are pretty much incoherent on the subject. How many party leaders are going to be impacted by the inability to discuss this topic, Starmer is the third by my reckoning.

Johnson seems to be trying to face both ways at the moment, and I'm curious about what he really thinks. He's waffled, as ever, and not really answered yet.

According to Conservative Home, he was making off colour jokes and mocking "transgender/defining what makes a woman" etc at the shindig the Tories threw Monday evening.

Yesterday, he was all understanding, all encompassing and verbally supportive of "Jamie", and the issue.

GG13 A good suggestion, made by someone else was that there should be male, female and an ‘open’ category.
Competitors could then choose between racing in their birth sex race or the open category.
That would obviate the need for anyone to declare themselves trans-if they did not wish to publicise their sex.