I think this will happen more and more

Thank you Rosie51
Actually it looks like if you dare to refer to the scientific fact that it is impossible to change your sex, you're a transphobe.
If you deny scientific facts that don’t suit you, you’re a TVG.

If you state there are only two sexes you're a transphobe.
If you deny biological facts because they don’t suit you, you’re a TVG.

If you say you don't have a gender identity you're a transphobe.

Who do we know at present who believes he can compel people to say and think what he tells them? Putin!

If you question people like Lia Thomas, a failed male swimmer who identifies as a transwoman to then become number 1, smashing the women's records, then you're a transphobe.

Sadly some misogynistic women support his actions by not condemning the fact that males are allowed to do that.

Think people with penises have no place on female wards, prisons, refuges, communal changing rooms, then you're a transphobe.

Think all those things are OK, then you’re mysogynistic facilitator.

Think it's unfair that 'Business Woman of the year' type awards (categories created because females weren't regarded equally with their male counterparts) are awarded to trans identified males, then you are a transphobe.

Agree that it’s right and you’re a mysogynist who discriminates against females.

Think females shouldn't have their terms eg woman, mother etc replaced by 'pregnant people' 'menstruators' 'cervix havers' against their will, then you're a transphobe.

Think those things are right, then you’re a TVG.

Say sex and gender are totally different things and many people don't have any gender then you're a transphobe.

* Sex is immutable and gender used to be an accurate description that reflected Sex*.

Now Gender is a word bandied around to allow people to pretend they can change sex.
* Saying you don’t acknowledge sex and gender are different is a belief . . . and who do we know who is presently telling people they aren’t allowed to believe the truth?*
Putin!

If you say anything should just be for females, then you're a transphobe.

If women say women aren’t allowed to have anything just for them they're discriminatory mysogynists

And the worst of it this is all these accusations of transphobia are said by people who claim to be so kind.

As for All the medical terms about anatomy are strictly devided into male and female and trans people either deal with being the gender we tell them they are or don't get the help they need.
Well medical terms that apply to sexual differences about our biology are divided into the two sexes because there are only two sexes.
I don't think anyone has told any trans person what gender they have to be, especially as many of us do not have one. They can have any gender they want to join and display, aren't we told there are 100 or more genders? Unfortunately they can't choose what sex they are, that was determined at conception where biology rules not man.

I agree with you completely Rosie51
You have summed it up perfectly.
Just added a few thoughts of my own. Hope you don’t mind.

And if women support the definition of all those categories as transphobic, or, don’t condemn the people who who believe it, then they’re misogynistic, discrimatory against females and a shameful example of womanhood and not kind at all!

Rosie51

Actually it looks like if you dare to refer to the scientific fact that it is impossible to change your sex, you're a transphobe.
If you state there are only two sexes you're a transphobe.
If you say you don't have a gender identity you're a transphobe.
If you question people like Lia Thomas, a failed male swimmer who identifies as a transwoman to then become number 1, smashing the women's records, then you're a transphobe.
Think people with penises have no place on female wards, prisons, refuges, communal changing rooms, then you're a transphobe.
Think it's unfair that 'Business Woman of the year' type awards (categories created because females weren't regarded equally with their male counterparts) are awarded to trans identified males, then you are a transphobe.
Think females shouldn't have their terms eg woman, mother etc replaced by 'pregnant people' 'menstruators' 'cervix havers' against their will, then you're a transphobe.
Say sex and gender are totally different things and many people don't have any gender then you're a transphobe.
If you say anything should just be for females, then you're a transphobe. And the worst of it this is all said by people who claim to be so kind.
As for All the medical terms about anatomy are strictly devided into male and female and trans people either deal with being the gender we tell them they are or don't get the help they need. Well medical terms that apply to sexual differences about our biology are divided into the two sexes because there are only two sexes. I don't think anyone has told any trans person what gender they have to be, especially as many of us do not have one. They can have any gender they want to join and display, aren't we told there are 100 or more genders? Unfortunately they can't choose what sex they are, that was determined at conception where biology rules not man.

I agree with you completely. You have summed it up perfectly. ?

FarNorth thanks for the link, that's a good informative read. Apart from the fact the counter protestors didn't have too many facts to hand what stood out for me was
the gay rights movement never required anybody to adopt reality-denying ideologies, and that’s what gave it such strength. and that's exactly why gay rights shouldn't be used as an argument.

"none of the SWS protesters had any objection to the transgender athlete Iszac Henig, who was also competing at the women’s NCAA Championships that day. That’s because although Henig “identifies” as a man, Henig is female and does not take exogenous testosterone, and therefore has no unfair advantage over other female athletes."

www.realityslaststand.com/p/gender-ideology-is-on-life-support

I agree PECS, sports need to be segregated by sex and also by whatever other categories are needed, so you dont have 30 year old men or women in the childrens category to take an extreme example

I've heard people saying "well you get tall women and that makes it fair if men compete against them"
Its bollocks.
Natina Navratrilova, who was often criticised for being too masculine and too big compared to the other female players has said that as strong and talented as she was, she still often lost when playing against her male bodied coach.

I remember when my son was about 14 we had (for fun) race in the swimming pool on hoiday.
He'd gone through puberty but hadn't yet finished having a growth spurt, so I was taller and heavier than him.
He beat me.
And he wasn't even trying.

Any male, like Liar Thimas, who's gone through puberty will have an unfair advantage.

But Galaxywhilst I do understand the issue of m/f lungs & heart etc. A small male of light weight would not compete equally against a taller heavier male in some sports.e.g boxing. so it does exist already

A woman is not just a man with their penis removed. Sorry but you cant change sex whatever you do or dont do to your body.

Rosie51

He's only on testosterone suppression. No penile inversion or breast implants (not that I'm suggesting for one moment Lia should have either) so having achieved a full male puberty, if testosterone suppression is ceased then Lia's body would quickly make normal levels of T once again.

But I think they should should have the penile inversion, of they truly want to be a women.
OK it still won't make them women.
If he has a penis he's a man.
No such thing as a female penis.
Biology is biology.

Galaxy

But its not just about height and weight, the differences between men and women include men have larger lung capacity, increased red blood production, different angle in pelvis, quicker hand eye coordination, and I cant remember the rest!

Then perhaps that could be a way forward. In future all athletes must undergo multiple tests to measure things you quoted above and would then be assigned (amazing word) to the group that matches their measurements and only be able to compete in that group. Cynically I think there’d be cheating in the tests wherever the chance arose.
They do their best to classify para-Olympians to make it fairer, but it isn’t easy.

But its not just about height and weight, the differences between men and women include men have larger lung capacity, increased red blood production, different angle in pelvis, quicker hand eye coordination, and I cant remember the rest!

doodledog I agree that if a person , raised male with physical male attributes, including testosterone levels, heart, lung & muscle capacity then as a young adult, or older, identifies as female & competes in sport with non trans females it is certainly not " a level playing field ".
The other solution would be to do away with gender as a dividing " class" of athletes and base it on weight , height & qualifying speed/ distance etc. .
So m/ f running a 500m with height and weight restriction. ?
So many complex questions!

CS has high testosterone because they have a condition which excludes them from female sport. I hate talking about this because people with dsd s have begged not to be dragged into it and also because in order to discuss it we have to talk about a medical condition which quite rightly the regulatory authorities need to keep private.

It does come up often, PECS. Her case is really tricky, and because she is black, anyone who suggests that there should be a cut-off for testosterone levels in female athletes is accused of racism as well as transphobia- it’s impossible to discuss dispassionately.

I think that whereas CS’s case is really difficult, the bottom line has to be that everything about competitive sport comes down to physical differences- people with long legs will be better at running, those with upper body strength will excel at throwing etc. It has to work both ways to be fair, though. If those physical differences push someone into another category (as in boxing, or in a different way in para-olympics) the athlete should compete in that category. It’s either that or scrap categories altogether and do away with female sport, para competition and weight categories in fighting.

Unfortunately for CS, the ‘other category’ would be men’s racing, and she doesn’t qualify for that (although as we have seen, male-bodied athletes find their way onto women’s categories). As men have the advantage over women, it is debatable whether she would stand a chance in a man’s race, though - which is, of course, why it is unfair for male-bodied people to compete in women’s races. It’s really difficult.

Sorry if this has been mentioned..I did skim through previous posts..

Caster Semenye who was raised female & identfies as female has been challenged & stopped from competing because she has naturally high testosterone. She is being asked too take drugs to lower her testosterone levels.
We have no idea if past female elite athletes had high testosterone, we do know that some elite female gymnasts have puberty supressed etc etc.
The more we know the more complex situations become..I don't have an answer but I know I felt Caster, as a woman, had been badly treated by press etc.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202203/medium-633735-screenshot-20220324-065245.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202203/medium-675806-screenshot-20220324-064836.png https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202203/medium-539166-screenshot-20220324-064720.png

Sharron Davies is saying :

Rosie51

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1505729132151259141.html

An interesting read and analysis of the impact Lia Thomas had on the championship.

First striking fact to emerge is that Thomas scored all Penn's NCAA points, yes all of them.
Second striking fact Penn was 20th out of 39 scoring schools, all down to Thomas against a field of 182 women.

But hey, no advantage there, nothing to see, be kind, inclusive.

Thanks for that Rosie51,
and still the authorities are too scared to say it’s wrong!

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1505729132151259141.html

An interesting read and analysis of the impact Lia Thomas had on the championship.

First striking fact to emerge is that Thomas scored all Penn's NCAA points, yes all of them.
Second striking fact Penn was 20th out of 39 scoring schools, all down to Thomas against a field of 182 women.

But hey, no advantage there, nothing to see, be kind, inclusive.

That should have had an irony warning, also several typo corrections. It was typed with one hand while holding a cup of coffee in the other.

Do you think it likely that the men's boxing categories scrapped? (There arec urrently 17 weight classes, from minimum weight, up up 105 pounds or 48 kg, going up to heavyweight at no maximum)

Surely it is just as unfair to exclude boxers from competing in classes against lighter people with naturally less muscular mass as it is to unfair object to those who have had natural testosterone while they were developing their male physique before transitioning, then competing against women who have had no such advantage.

twitter.com/i/status/1505715407684091921

"When we weren't allowed to be in sports in college and get scholarships, everybody knew what a woman was. We weren't even allowed to participate in the marathon till the Olympics in 1984. When we weren't allowed to do that, they knew who a woman was."
@coachblade
#EverybodyKnows

And Reka Gyorgy, who missed out on qualifying for the finals because of Thomas pushing everyone down by one place.

swimswam.com/17th-place-finisher-in-500-reka-gyorgy-pens-letter-to-ncaa-on-transgender-rules/

Excellent FarNorth it's gaining traction isn't it.

"A large group of swimming parents from five Ivy League Schools wrote a letter to the NCAA [National Collegiate Athletic Association], published in the New York Post, protesting the eligibility of transgender swimmer Lia Thomas."

www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/ivy-league-parents-write-new-letter-of-protest-to-ncaas-policy-on-transgender-athletes-treatment-of-women/

He’s a cheat in my opinion and he’s a he!
Good picture Doodledog.