Ukraine - contd

I am not and have never been the sort to Sit on the sidelines wringing my hands without taking any necessary action.

What kind of action will you be taking Whitewave?

So if you are calling it a day on here then I presume you are off to negotiate with that nice Mr Putin?
Good luck with that

You are playing his game, and forgetting where your loyalties should be lying.
That really is offensive.

MerylStreep

^you are playing his game and forgetting where your loyalties should be lying^
And you need to get your head out of your backside.

Gosh with that sort of argument I think I will call it a day.

you are playing his game and forgetting where your loyalties should be lying
And you need to get your head out of your backside.

I must now stop!!

The "experts" will know that it will probably not make an iota of difference to the day to day running of this war.

But the "experts" will also know that what he said, whether it was scripted or not, is inflammatory and will be used by Putin to show that the West want him gone.

What did "expert" Biden mean when he told those American soldiers they'd see what Ukraine was like when they got there?

Nothing "faux" here. A bit of realpolitik and an understanding of propaganda.

Whitewavemark2

That I think is enough time on this subject, as far as I am concerned.

Of course I haven’t suggested that people think he should be removed from office.

I am saying very strongly that we can’t afford to become divided.

I agree volver, that it was a stupid and serious error. I still think it’s ultimately a storm in a teacup though, this is going to be a drawn out affair, and I don’t believe that it will be a defining moment - we all know how much Putin has manipulated the Russian media for years, and that people have already made their minds up what they believe. What would be helpful for us all would be an enhanced understanding of what else the Russian people have been told, there’s been remarkably little media coverage about the detail that’s led them to believe everything he tells them.

Whitewavemark2

Yes you are right, and as I said it was unfortunate, but I honestly don’t think that it will make a fart-icle of difference to Ukraine.

What we have to focus on is the evil being done by Putin, and not a mis+spoken word by the leader of the free world.

It is so important not to over-react at such a difficult time.

It is absolutely important that when faced with such evil we remain a closed and tight force letting nothing divide us.

If you listen to Trump and his speeches lately that is exactly what he is trying to do, so typical of the populist agenda.

We all know that much goes on behind the scenes. This outrage - some so obviously faux - is people wanting to show they know more than experts. In this case, Biden is an expert and, as I said, one talking to more than one audience.

Trump is simply evil and best ignored. I know we can't or we will have another Putin on our hands but it is best wherever possible.

Where we differ is that I refuse to become divided on the issue and am prepared to tackle any outcome head on.

What you don't seem to understand WWM2, is that nobody is suggesting that Biden should be removed from office or whatever, although a few extreme people are saying he's senile or whatever.

Most people are not saying that. Most people are saying that what he said was ill-advised and will support Putin's claim that the West are out to get him, and Russia in general.

We don't have to do anything. There's nothing we can do. We just get on with it.

And I'll bemoan anything I like, that's what we do in free countries.

That I think is enough time on this subject, as far as I am concerned.

You do realise that I think that it was a mis-speak that should never have taken place, and you have no argument from me that it shouldn’t have happened?

Where we differ is that I refuse to become divided on the issue and am prepared to tackle any outcome head on.

I am not and have never been the sort to Sit on the sidelines wringing my hands without taking any necessary action.

Action which none of you seem to have a clear idea what should happen next other than bemoan the fact that Biden made a diplomatic off the cuff error.

You are playing his game, and forgetting where your loyalties should be lying.

Don't imply I'm a traitor, lady.

I'm sorry, but all the defence of how "it doesn't really matter", that's just naïve.

Of course it matters!

I'm sure Putin's regime have been using doctored recordings and deepfakes for a long time to try to say the west are out to get them. Now they have an actual, undoctored, live recording of the POTUS telling everyone that their "elected" leader needs to be removed from power. In the middle of a war.

It's a gift!! And I say this as someone who rejoiced when Biden was elected. I'm not anti-Biden but I'm sorry, just getting behind a guy when he does something stupid, because at least he's not Trump, that's not democracy.

And whilst you are all up in arms about what Biden has said, how do you think that is playing with Putin, who has worked so hard to divide the west?

You are playing his game, and forgetting where your loyalties should be lying.

You can side with the republicans and Trump and act as populists do and

Putin has always seen his actions in Ukraine as legitimate but thanks to Joe Biden, a good percentage of Russians will now see it that way too, as confirmed in a recorded speech by the US President. Look what happened to Saddam Hussein and Colonel Ghaddafi? Regime change under a different guise. Putin could and probably will, use the the same analogy. Think if Boris had said that!! The shrieks on here would have brought the ceiling down, but for dear old Joe, it was just an unfortunate gaff!

I’m not a Biden fan Zoejory. However I take a comment like that for what it is, and I’m amazed that people don’t apparently realise that Putin will have been trawling all western social media, and doctoring clips of people saying things he deems ‘anti Russian’ since he initially planned this war. Ultimately this will make no difference.

Whitewavemark2

So what would you do?

Accepting that Biden has made an error, and we are where we are?

You have a choice it seems to me. Either rally around Biden and move on, or what?

Putin already sees his actions in Ukraine as legitimate, he doesn’t need Biden to confirm them. It is how dictator’s work.

This as I keep repeating will make no difference to the outcome.

No WWM2 its not a question of "rallying around Biden".

The man made a mistake. He poured fuel on the fire. He gave Putin an excuse to tell his people that the West are trying to undermine him and take over Russia. So we don't all stand behind Biden and say that he was right, just because he's on our side.

What do we do? Nothing. The Secretary of State is trying to fix it.

Maybe it will make no difference to the outcome but we're not talking about wee boys in the playground, we're taking about international diplomacy.

That's how propaganda works.

Wow! Thanks, Casdon and Whitewavemark2!

Thank you so much for that

storm in a teacup, eh?

Let the White House know this and while you're at it have a word with Macron. And the majority of western leaders.

Also, I'm pretty sure that had Boris said this you'd be spitting feathers.

Which makes your comments lack credibility

Casdon

I think it’s a storm in a teacup. Ultimately it won’t make any difference whatsoever to the outcome of this conflict.

That is exactly what I think.

I think it’s a storm in a teacup. Ultimately it won’t make any difference whatsoever to the outcome of this conflict.

So what would you do?

Accepting that Biden has made an error, and we are where we are?

You have a choice it seems to me. Either rally around Biden and move on, or what?

Putin already sees his actions in Ukraine as legitimate, he doesn’t need Biden to confirm them. It is how dictator’s work.

This as I keep repeating will make no difference to the outcome.

Whitewavemark2

Putin attacks a peaceful democracy and bombs children and destroys whole cities, and forceably removes Ukrainians to Russia to be held goodness knows where (concentration camps?)

And you argue that Biden’s off the cuff remark, that he accepts he should not have made. Is dangerous!!!

No one is denying what President Putin is doing is wrong, barbaric and basically multiple war crimes.

I am sorry that you cannot see that POTUS making what you call an off the cuff remark will in President Putin’s mind legitimise his actions in Ukraine and any further actions in neighbouring Countries.

President Putin is dangerous, I do not want WW111 waged on the back of an off the cuff remark by a POTUS with years and years of political experience who should have known better.

But the reason it will make no difference to the outcome is that this is the message that the Russians have been receiving for decades from Putin, it is nothing new as far as they are concerned. It is one if the reasons that Putin used to go into Ukraine.

Because now they have proof!!!

At least they think they do. Things can be done wrongly on the non-aggressor side as well as the aggressor side. Biden saying something ill-advised does not mean we are blaming him for the invasion, but you don't pick at a scab and make it worse and them complain when you bleed.

BTW - look up the meaning of nee.

Putin attacks a peaceful democracy and bombs children and destroys whole cities, and forceably removes Ukrainians to Russia to be held goodness knows where (concentration camps?)

And you argue that Biden’s off the cuff remark, that he accepts he should not have made. Is dangerous!!!

GrannyGravy13

Whitewavemark2

Right then assuming you are all correct, what do you suggest happens next?

Start praying that President Putin’s remaining inner circle have the balls not to follow his orders…

I assume you are talking about WMDs?