Apologies for past injustices - where do you stand?

I do see slavery as different than Viking raids. Huge fortunes were made on the backs of those slaves. The legacy lives with us. Our beautiful country houses, the wonderful buildings cities like Liverpool, Bristol and Glasgow, the wealth that continues to grow in the families where fortunes were made . I’ve only made one visit to America. The negative legacy of slavery is everywhere.
It seems superficial in light of that to mention the government’s levelling up agenda. But there we are, I did. Here in Lancashire/gtr Manchester, we created the wealth during the industrial revolution. Not asking for compensation but some investment would be welcome.

The Romans (as were) and the Vikings no longer exist, though. It's not the same thing at all.

Slavery was more than 'a mistake', as were many of the things that blighted the lives of the working classes in the Industrial Revolution. Those things made some people obscenely rich, and others obscenely poor, and the consequences of that enrichment and impoverishment persist today. Those things could realistically be addressed - pillaging by Vikings can't.

Fair enough if Italy apologises for the Roman Armies, Norway? for the Vikings and France to say sorry for King William. |The apology idea is ludicrous. Most countries seem to have invaded another at some time. Why cannot we all accept that some mistakes were made in some cases and do our best not to let it happen again!!??I don't think that Putin would agree, though.

I don't want anyone apologising to me because my gt, gt, grandmother was born in slavery but I would very much like to see something done about things like the Windrush scandal and the inequities suffered by many descendants of slaves

Yes, the generational inequalities do need to be addressed. I said so upthread, and I believe it to be true. I'm not sure what the best way of doing so is, though. Recognising that whole communities are not 'skivers', or 'lazy' or 'ineducable' would be a start, and making it easier for people to understand that they are as capable as anyone else to get 'good jobs' or degrees, or whatever their ambitions are would be useful too, so long as fine words are followed with measurable actions.

I know from experience how much time and money goes into things like bidding for funding in regeneration areas, and a lot of it would be far better spent on transport or safe playgrounds, or educational facilities that are accessible from housing estates. I wonder if building colleges or nurseries (or football fields/old people's centres) and calling them after abolitionists or philanthropists might go some way to redress the balance between the statues and street names that celebrate slave owners and exploiters of labour?

I'm still thinking aloud though - there are probably far better ways of doing it.

Working in the mills, as the children of my ancestors did, alongside their parents was hard, 12 hour days in grim conditions. They were not slaves, torn from their homeland, transported in horrific conditions, then brutalised on plantations. My ancestors surely had tough lives but they were free.

Let's move on for pity's sake. You can't put the clock back, history is just that, history. Draw a line under it and learn from it. We have more than enough in the here and now to be worrying ourselves over.

^ I don't want to hear someone born in the last 70 years apologising to me about what happened to my great grandparents in Ireland in the 19th century -^

I don't want anyone apologising to me because my gt, gt, grandmother was born in slavery but I would very much like to see something done about things like the Windrush scandal and the inequities suffered by many descendants of slaves.

winterwhite

We can't apologise for things we didn't do ourselves (ex for animals owned by us or small children). If we use the word 'regret' instead it is much easier.

Reparation would be best served by doing much, much more by way of foreign aid. The UK's stance is shameful, and this is something that ordinary people can do something about if they really want to, by putting pressure on their elected representatives and at the ballot box.

Proposing more foreign aid or compensation for past misdeeds, is not a vote winner at an election, so is not going to happen. There are a great many other priorities that voters will support.

Some peoples need reparations and some do not. For instance it would be absurd to try to turn back the clock in Ireland to pre-Cromwell days, whereas it would be fair to turn back the clock to the Israeli Palestine pre-1967 border, or the Green Line.

volver

That was rude, and I apologise.

But I stand by the fact that the thousands (millions?) of people taken from their homes, treated as worse than animals, raped, held in sub-human conditions, and all the rest of it, had it a bit worse than children down mines. That doesn't diminish the suffering of the children down mines but it is not transatlantic slavery.

You've hit the nail on the head with your statement regarding transatlantic slavery. I do think that is the reason why most people have difficulty with this because it's one race enslaving another. Otherwise, what is the difference between the treatment of slaves in the West Indies and those enslaved by their own nations?

Slavery is still happening in the UK - witness the report of a case this year of a man held captive for 40 years in a shed n Cumbria. There have also been cases involving rich Saudis holding their servants captive in London.

There have been a lot of interesting replies, and it's clear that there is no real consensus.

If 'we' decide to apologise, who should speak for us? Should it be the royals, or there government, or someone else? Is there anyone who can speak for all of the UK?

Or if we decide to pay reparations, how would that work? We can't realistically pay individual people, and if we did, how would the formula work? Is an international response more appropriate? If so, do we factor in Aid that has already happened, or is it insulting to even consider that? How do we know what would have happened without (eg) slavery, or if the UK government had helped the Irish in the famine, or taxed mine owners and used the money to educate the workforce? Can we 'wind back' to a time that has never existed and to a place that is hypothetical?

I still don't know. Apologies without back-up money do seem hollow - I don't want to hear someone born in the last 70 years apologising to me about what happened to my great grandparents in Ireland in the 19th century - it makes no sense. Would my life have been materially different if it hadn't happened? I have no idea. Does it matter? Probably not.

I agree that the notion of deferring to those who benefitted from atrocities is strange. I'm not a cap-doffer, and I don't understand the fierce loyalties some people have to borders and boundaries - they seem to me to be nothing more than territories of long-dead thugs, so I don't go in for that either, although I can fully understand why Ukranians identify as such and not as Russians.

It's all complicated, isn't it? I knew so much more when I was younger ?

volver

Like I said GG13, I don't know either way whether apologising is a good thing.

But I do know that saying there are other bad things in the world isn't an argument for not doing it, and distracts from the true discussion.

I think the position I am taking on this is the Government/Monarchy can say what it likes but it cannot change history.

What we can do is change the here and now, by doing so does not negate the suffering of the slaves but it could stop it being perpetuated in the 21st Century.

AGAA4

How far back should we go to apologise for the suffering Britain has caused.
Some of our history is nothing to be proud of.
If countries we have exploited want an apology then we should apologise.

I agree with this. I was going to post similar, it doesn't matter what WE think, it matters to them and that is all that is important.

How far back should we go to apologise for the suffering Britain has caused.
Some of our history is nothing to be proud of.
If countries we have exploited want an apology then we should apologise.

We can't apologise for things we didn't do ourselves (ex for animals owned by us or small children). If we use the word 'regret' instead it is much easier.

Reparation would be best served by doing much, much more by way of foreign aid. The UK's stance is shameful, and this is something that ordinary people can do something about if they really want to, by putting pressure on their elected representatives and at the ballot box.

Like I said GG13, I don't know either way whether apologising is a good thing.

But I do know that saying there are other bad things in the world isn't an argument for not doing it, and distracts from the true discussion.

volver

We can do both GG13

So what you are raising is a complete distraction.

I still don't know if we should be apologising but I do know that saying there are other evils in the world isn't a good argument for not doing it.

I just think that apologies for the slave trade by this generation who had absolutely nothing to do with it is rather pointless.

Acknowledging it, is however essential.

The above is just my opinion.

We can do both GG13

So what you are raising is a complete distraction.

I still don't know if we should be apologising but I do know that saying there are other evils in the world isn't a good argument for not doing it.

There are still child slaves in Africa, they mine in appalling conditions in order for us to have batteries and microchips in everyday technology.

They need rescuing not apologies.

That was rude, and I apologise.

But I stand by the fact that the thousands (millions?) of people taken from their homes, treated as worse than animals, raped, held in sub-human conditions, and all the rest of it, had it a bit worse than children down mines. That doesn't diminish the suffering of the children down mines but it is not transatlantic slavery.

During the Industrial Revolution children as young as 4 worked in the cotton mills or mines. Is anyone going to argue that their lives were better than those of slaves?

Oh God, Aye.

Read some history lassie.

Throughout history, the world over, masses of people have been enslaved at one time or another.

In England, during the Middle Ages the feudal system existed and about 85% of the population were serfs. Serfdom was a form of slavery whereby the serfs were tied to the land they occupied and the landowners. The lords owned everything that the serfs had, apart from their ability to work,

The end of serfdom started with the Peasants Revolt in 1381 but was not abolished until the reign of Elizabeth 1. It was abolished by Austria in the 18C and Russia in the 19C.

So, are the descendants of those English landowners supposed to apologise for the treatment during the Middle Ages of the ancestors of the majority of us? Obviously the answer has to be no. In the same way we should not be apologising for slavery.

During the Industrial Revolution children as young as 4 worked in the cotton mills or mines. Is anyone going to argue that their lives were better than those of slaves?

What we should be doing is learning from the past, remembering that slavery still goes on, sometimes in the UK and endeavouring to ensure that all people are treated fairly.

I find it very distasteful and if I may say so, colonial, that some posts say that our former colonies are corrupt and need a bigger country to look after them.

Do you hear yourselves?

Jamaica or any other former colony becoming a republic will make no difference to the lives of 99% of the population, a few of the elite will be able to enhance their own prestige and probably their bank balances too.

Can’t we just accept that although we are all sorry for the awful things that happened in the past, we cannot ‘make it up’ to any of the people who were affected.

If all the rich people who made their money from slavery in the world, sold up and handed it back in cash to the relatives of the people who were enslaved would that help? Maybe having these people stripped of their honours and their wealth would also help?

And as someone said what about the Irish who died in the famines, miners, farmers forced from their lands and farm workers barely able to feed their families? Are their relatives any less deserving?

Reparations seem to be what people want, but we can’t even sort the Windrush problem out, so trying to sort claimants out for the abuse meted out by the upper classes hundreds of years ago is a monumental task and one quite frankly (IMO) that no U.K. Government would want to tackle.

We know that our country wasn’t alone, maybe there should be an International fund for all people affected by land grabbing, slavery and poor treatment by the upper classes who made millions from their misery?
I’m also including the Native Americans in this.

But the list is endless.

Why not start by treating these peoples properly now and give them all a decent standard of living?

Of course we can’t, because we can’t even do that for people living in our own Country.

A bit of a ramble I know, but it is a very difficult problem and saying ‘sorry’ is only the start of it.