Apologies for past injustices - where do you stand?

'The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there.'
I think there should certainly be an acknowledgement of the part that was played by the UK. For example, Glasgow was built by slavery as the tobacco lords used slaves to create their wealth and then prospered. That prosperity can be seen in the ornate Victorian buildings and street names to honour them. Recognition of the role of tobacco lords, annotating street names with what they did would be a start. Perhaps help given to the Windrush generation and a recognition that they were treated badly and reparation too.

Thanks for the reply, Grandmabatty

Would the fact that recognition was given by people who weren't alive at the time of the injustice make it seem hollow, or does that not matter so much as an attempt to level the playing field today?

I'm not sure how that would work, really - a payment of £X to everyone left from the Windrush generation, or to their descendants? How would the amount be decided? Would it extend to descendants of other exploited groups of people?

I can see an argument that the descendants of slave owners have had charmed lives compared to the descendants of slaves - generations of education, privilege and comparative wealth, but at what point do we say that this is also true of, say, mine owners or aristocracy (often the same thing), and go all out for a revolution? Who would be up against the wall (metaphorically!) and would it depend on the success or otherwise of their ancestors? If your great grandad was the profligate son of a mine owner and gambled away his share of the family loot would you be spared, but not if your ancestor had invested his gains wisely and you'd got your hands on a massive pile?

I know this post is muddled, but so is my thinking on the subject. Does anyone have a clearer perspective and a more well thought out point of view?

No I don’t. I was hoping that I could read lots of different views to help me make up my mind. Maybe there’ll be more along tomorrow with their opinions.

I do have particular sympathy concerning the past dreadful slave trade, but generally I tend to think that if every country had to make reparations for past events then many countries in the world would have something to apologise for.
Where would it stop?

No apologies; no reparations, please. It's a tricky business, this virtue-signalling. Should we apologise for our part in the North Atlantic slave trade only when the descendants of the Barbary Pirates apologise for the many Britons they took and sold as slaves? Are we permitted to offset the efforts extended and the blood shed by the Royal Navy in helping to end the slave trade against the extent of our reparations? If we really must apologise for past misdeeds, then let's reserve a week at the UN for every member country to apologise the every other member country for the beastly things its forebears may have done to others' forebears. And then let's put it all behind us and get on with our lives.

I think the apologies are hollow when they are just words with no action to match them.

I remember all the backslapping British self admiration in 2007, the 200th anniversary of the British abolition of the slave trade, but we still had the Windrush scandal, racial inequalities in health, education and wealth, and outright racism. Nothing has been done to mitigate any of that. It was just empty words

I felt quite bemused by it all at the time, having slave and white ancestry joined in my maternal line. Should one part of me be apologising to the other part?

I don't know what could be constructively done, though, Dd.

Bodach well said. I agree that apologies are pointless and meaningless. So many dreadful things were done in the past, where will the apologies ever end? Should I expect an apology because 200 years ago my ancestors were living in hovels and paid a pittance to work long hours in the fields and factories? Or maybe for their children who were made to go up chimneys, into mines and to crawl around on factory floors all day? It's the past. Let it go.

It would be great if we recognised that in many cases people’s current circumstances (for good or ill) were bound up with history though, and tried to make life fairer. Not so much on an individual basis, but by investing in poorer areas, or by restructuring taxes so that those with generations of wealth behind them paid more - that sort of thing.

Inequality goes much deeper than statues and street names. People need to be given opportunities and to be persuaded that they should take them. The tricky bit is targeting it fairly. When schemes are aimed at ‘disadvantaged postcodes’ it is usually the better off who take advantage of them, and the ones who most need the help miss out. Short of having a ‘disadvantage test’ of some kind, which would obviously be iniquitous, though, it’s not easy to be fair to everyone.

I don’t think there’s much point in apologies, but maybe making it clear that initiatives are happening as ‘payback’ might help with resentment? Slavery reparation funds, or mills and coalfield grants? We’d have to make sure that the money was really directed to the right people though. All too often it is the people writing the bids or building the premises who do well out of these schemes, with only temporary gain for a few people ‘at the bottom’. We need to be more radical than just throwing a bit of temporary money at deprived areas, and look at how to lift people’s aspirations.

It’s all been tried before in various ways, but we still have a very unequal society - how can we wind back generations of disadvantage and start to put things right?

If apologies are asked for, make them. Compared to the destruction of millions of lives, of communities, of the damage to cultures and the tortures inflicted upon millions, an apology is a very minor thing.

Contrition should be expressed.

And frankly, parading round a couple of the descendants of the beneficiaries of that vile system is grotesque.

I don't think we should be apologising! History is just that! History.......
Good for the countries that are moving forward with independance , that is very good..But they should know how they got to this position! They would be nothing without our help over the many years... no apologies.

I think it is time to openly acknowledge that dreadful things happened in the past & that those dreadful things helped other people to prosper and places to thrive & that the legacy of those times is still impacting today.
Those whose previous generations/ ancestors suffered so badly and for so long will have that history in their culture and psyche. Colonial countries do need to listen to those people, find out what would make a difference and not assume they still know best.

I think those saying the past is the past, are incorrect. The disparity in wealth, the U.K. being one of the world’s wealthiest nations and many commonwealth countries being the poorest is a direct result of slavery.

A line can be drawn from the boom of stately homes in the 18th century, the generational wealth of many of those in positions of power in the House of Lords/house of commons/our monarchy directly from the proceeds of slaves and pillaging the natural resources of these countries.

Someone pointed out (not sure if here on another post) that the U.K. ended slavery and that should be congratulated. No indeed it should not be congratulated for ending something it never should have started. Not to mention the only reparations that were made were to the owners, and as part of the ‘reparations’ many slaves had to continue to work for another 5 years.

I was a monarchist but am no longer. France does very well from tourism of former palaces with no need of an actual monarchy, and the trip by Duke and Duchess in particular has been tone deaf so far.

lemsip

I don't think we should be apologising! History is just that! History.......
Good for the countries that are moving forward with independance , that is very good..But they should know how they got to this position! They would be nothing without our help over the many years... no apologies.

Goodness, we did them a big favour, did we? Civilised the savages, did we?

We either tore them from their native lands, transported them 1,000s of miles in appalling conditions and set them to work forcibly, also in appalling conditions and treated them like animals, or we 'conquered' or we appropriated their lands, looted their treasures, used their natural resources to enrich ourselves, imposed an alien religion on them and an alien system of government..

I'm not altogether sure how to contain my astonishment that peoples previously enslaved, conquered or displaced by us, far from being grateful for being civilised by us, actually could do with a bit of acknowledgement and contrition... How ungrateful of them...

Spot on MaizieD

I agree with Bodach and Chestnut. Let the past go and move on.

What went in in the past in terms of slavery was dreadful. Dreadful actions by western countries buying humans and making profit from human trading, dreadful actions of those who were involved in selling the slaves to the slavers. We can be ashamed of what our ancestors did even if ‘ancestors’ in this case represents the country we live in rather than our family members.
Apologies.
Yes we can apologise, but what good will it actually achieve. My family ancestors suffered badly because of the Highland Clearances. Would somebody saying they are sorry it happened make me feel better or differently? What sort of reparation would be appropriate and who would make it?
It is tricky.

I agree hollow, meaningless words . Let's move on and learn from past mistakes.

Even the import of mahogany was a guise to transport humans

There is no doubt that the industrialized countries UK, US, and all of Northern Europe benefited greatly from cheap raw materials, produced by slave and other low waged labour. All those countries were involved to a greater or lesser extent, the profits from slavery were invested in the industrial revolution, which further increased the wealth and power of the elite.

Today taxation has dispersed that power but is still concentrated in a relatively small number of the population, the difference is its our personal capital that fuels it, our savings, pensions and insurances are invested by companies that to make a profit for us, some ethically most not. The company names associated are exactly the same family names involved in slavery all those years ago.

Most colonies became independant 50yrs ago, many don’t seem culturally capable of becoming industrialized economies, even the wealthy nations, South Africa, Botswana and Namibia rely on outside enterprise to generate wealth. Even then corruption is rife with most of the money controlled by the President and a few cronies. The populations seem content that the President is chief and entitled to have the power and money, population is part of that power and control is a taboo subject.

and yes, I think they should apologise. I am not aware that the Royal family were early adopters of the anti slavery movement either

Should Britain apologise for its part in slavery? Yes I believe it should, so should the other countries whose colonial wealth was made at the expense of the slave trade.
I’m not sure what form apologies should take. We are beyond being able to compensate the slaves, rather than slave owners as happened when slavery was abolished.

I was fortunate at 13 and 14 to have a brilliant young woman teaching history. I remember the triangle of cotton.slave trade from Africa to the USA, WI and back to Britain. I remember Miss Slater teaching us about the East India Company. I live in what is now a former mill town. Miss Slater helped us understand how and why our large Pakistani Muslim community began to arrive in the 1950’s

I’m totally fed up with the dismissal if the cost of empire building as ‘woke’. Why is it so difficult to acknowledge the wealth in this country came in large part from the exploitation of others.

Your last paragraph made interesting reading MaizieD as we went to The Gambia in 2007 and saw celebration of the ending of slavery.

One of the trips we made was with a group of African Americans to the village of Kunta Kinte, of Roots fame and they all, to a man, agreed that had their ancestors not been taken as slaves to the ‘land of opportunity’ they’d still be poor in Africa. Are they not allowed to hold that opinion?

And for the record, Britain did not start slavery and were the first to take steps to ban it.

I personally feel an apology for all wrongs is sufficient and let the first nation that is with out sin shout loud - the silence will be deafening!

My husband's ancestors came to England from (southern) Ireland during the potato famine. They would have left family behind whose fate is unknown. They were poor people and earned what they could by the sweat of their brow. The workhouse featured in their lives. The English government could have assisted the starving Irish but chose not to. Should he and others like him ask for an apology from the UK government of today for all the suffering? No. It's a shameful episode in history and nothing said or done today can change what happened.

henetha

I do have particular sympathy concerning the past dreadful slave trade, but generally I tend to think that if every country had to make reparations for past events then many countries in the world would have something to apologise for.
Where would it stop?

This.

We were not the only country involved in slavery, also slavery in many forms has been going on over the centuries since the Romans.

But if the people of the Caribbean want to hear apologies, if it makes them feel some acknowledgement is made, then the powers that be should proffer an apology.

Many of our ancestors worked in horrendous conditions in mines, up chimneys and in factories and foundries. How did they benefit from the slave trade?

It's a worldwide issue, surely?