Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

Because women of colour, women of non-western nationalities, of non-standard gender representation, felt that second wave feminism only supported white-western women, who already made up quite a privileged group.

Intersectional feminism supports all women. It recognises other forms of discrimination in addition to sexism. Trans phobia for example.

Good post NanKate. Intersectional feminism is recognising that different forms of discrimination overlap for example sexism, racism, classism.

TBH I don't know why some identify as intersectional feminists', or why the word intersectional is even needed.

Yes I agree VS, and data and accurate collection of data seems to have been lacking. I have spent 30 +years working with children with autism and have watched services getting it wrong in many ways many times.

The mind boggles just thinking about a game of mixed doubles in tennis going forward.

Whitewave thanks for adding your thoughts, they have been interesting

Galaxy

I think the research shows a correlation between autism and gender non conformity. Very complex to unpick. One of the reasons we need to proceed with caution with regards to young people.

I have issues with this because autism has gone undiagnosed for many for a long time and many like myself don't seek diagnosis. I don't need it.

It could be that other reasons to seek help then means a diagnosis of autism too.

I think much more data is needed over a longer timescale.

Gagajo I have to admit I haven’t read all the previous posts just yours.

Firstly I don’t know what an Intersectional feminist is.

I am happy for anyone to present how they want to the world. My late cousin was trans and my friend’s son is transitioning so I am fairly conversant with how things are now.

What I do object to is having my views rubbished. I understand if folks don’t agree with me but I have the right IMO to state them.

I think that there are men, women, transmen, transwomen, lesbians, homosexuals, bisexuals and I can’t think of the name of those who are not sexual at all. What I don’t agree with is that a man who has transitioned is anything but that, he is not a woman, and the same with transmen.

Also the male now transitioned swimmer who recently won a competition against women, was unfair as he/she was physically stronger and larger than them, they didn’t stand a chance, but if anyone dares to say it was an unfair competition they are shouted down.

I find the way of the world very depressing now that free speech is being suppressed.

Finally I was appalled that two female MPs weren’t prepared to state what a ‘woman’ was.

For me the argument is about preserving single sex spaces, (and I dont think you can change sex) the absolute mess that appears to be support for children with gender dysphoria, the reinforcing of gender roles, (so I think the whole dress like a woman etc is incredibly regressive) and so on.

Doodledog

*My friend's daughter is on the spectrum VioletSky. She's nothing like this. Her best friend (also on the spectrum) is totally different to her in every aspect of her behaviour. There must a word for loading all people with a cerain disability into the same category.*

Probably. But I wasn't loading all Autistic people (they don't use 'on the spectrum' these days, incidentally) into the same category, was I? I was commenting on the non-binary people I know, in response to a question from WWM2, who asked what they were like.

There is probably a term for those who pick up on every bloody thing people on the other side of an argument post, however. Or will 'deliberately attempting to silence them' cover it?

My friend still uses "on the spectrum" as does her daughter. I'll tell them they are out of date.

Smileless2012

Regardless of the level of medical intervention it is not biologically possible to change sex. A man can have surgical removal of his genitalia, receive hormone treatment, have breast implants etc and become a trans woman but cannot become a woman.

Do you mean biological female? Yes I agree with that, but my argument is based on changed behaviour, as I think that innate sexual behaviour is changed by hormones. So if I’m right someone who has received surgical intervention and continual hormone treatment would not present a danger to a woman, unless of course there are other issues at stake here.

OK

Thanks everyone for bearing with me and patiently answering my questions. I have learned a lot today.

Last one, but perhaps one for later,

So what is the massive argument about?

In my simple way I cannot see a problem for me with anyone choosing to transition to another sex. I can see potentially massive problems for the individual concerned. But I think this is largely down to neither the scientists nor society having a handle on the whole issue.

I do however have a problem with a man who may demand to infringe my rights as a woman, because he wishes to act out his gender role as far as he can. He can’t in my book have it both ways, so my reaction is ‘sod off’. I think that just like everyone else and a lesson he should have learned as a young child that there are boundaries that must not be crossed. We might not like them, but hard cheese. I do not intend to infringe his rights to dress as he wishes and to go about unhindered, but I will not have my right as a woman to expect privacy and safety from unknown males violated.

Yes I thought he had been clear about that but I might have missed something.

Regardless of the level of medical intervention it is not biologically possible to change sex. A man can have surgical removal of his genitalia, receive hormone treatment, have breast implants etc and become a trans woman but cannot become a woman.

No, I think he's just a bloke who sometimes likes wearing a dress.

Grayson Perry as far as I am aware enjoys wearing clothes traditionally associated with females. He isnt saying he identifies as a woman is he?

GagaJo

*To me anyone who has gone through such a successful transition isn’t a trans, they are their chosen sex. One should respect them as such and in my book that is not to identify them as anything different than their chosen sex.* I think this is a lovely point. Kind.

So those acting out a gender role whilst remaining the opposite sex cannot be classed as trans? What about if they are stuck in the long and very difficult process of trying to get treatment & eventually, surgery?

That is different. I believe that those seeking surgery and medication are encouraged by their psychiatrist to live as far as possible as their chosen sex before any intervention is carried out. They have almost certainly been doing so in any case.
But they are until medical intervention still the sex in which they were born and certainly so until hormone therapy.
No-one can deny that this transitioning to another sex is not easy, but one must assume the goal is worth it.

Those simply acting out a gender role like for example Grayson Perry are still in his case male and remain legally so, throughout their role reversal. They retain their testosterone as undoubtedly Perry’s wife would be able to testify. Mind you I always think that Perry just likes womens clothing - he always seems to act as a man.

Trisher says “Women should be safe everywhere.”
Yes they should, but they aren’t, mostly because of the actions of males however they present, though potentially the actions of females.

“They should not need the provision of safe spaces”
No they shouldn’t, but where else would they go to escape abusive relationships or attacks by ANY males, including TW or any females including TM?
Trisher continues
“because the step which comes after that is restricting them to those spaces to keep them safe.”
That’s rubbish.
Refuges are to keep women safe from further harm, whilst the people who have abused them are dealt with, not prisons to keep them in.

Female only toilets are spaces safer from the potential of attack by even one predatory male. The potential number of attackers has no bearing on the need.

Are you suggesting that the females would be restricted to using the female toilets? Why would that be a problem? Have there been large numbers of females desperate to use male toilets that I haven’t heard about.

By refusing to support the need for safe spaces for women on the grounds that they shouldn’t need them, you are facilitating the access for abusive males or ill-intentioned TW to cause harm.
Even one woman abused because of that is one too many, or are you implying you feel it needs to be a bigger number of abused women before you are convinced?

I think the research shows a correlation between autism and gender non conformity. Very complex to unpick. One of the reasons we need to proceed with caution with regards to young people.

The latest report particularly with regards to young people is stating that there is not enough evidence on pretty much all intervention, we should not be telling people they will be able to access single sex services if they have surgery.

To be fair doodledog a lot of people still use spectrum, umbrella is a fairly recent term that many are not aware of yet

Autism really doesn't need to be brought into this... Socially anxious would have done

It's not the first time I've seen autism mentioned on the trans threads but I can't quite remember what was said before

All the autistic people I know have about the same sort of percentages as neurotyoical people when it comes to sexuality or gender if that means anything.

I'm aware saying my friend/circle/experience doesn't really carry any weight

Actually trisher womens aid have just confirmed their commitment to single sex spaces.

To me anyone who has gone through such a successful transition isn’t a trans, they are their chosen sex. One should respect them as such and in my book that is not to identify them as anything different than their chosen sex. I think this is a lovely point. Kind.

So those acting out a gender role whilst remaining the opposite sex cannot be classed as trans? What about if they are stuck in the long and very difficult process of trying to get treatment & eventually, surgery?

My friend's daughter is on the spectrum VioletSky. She's nothing like this. Her best friend (also on the spectrum) is totally different to her in every aspect of her behaviour. There must a word for loading all people with a cerain disability into the same category.

Probably. But I wasn't loading all Autistic people (they don't use 'on the spectrum' these days, incidentally) into the same category, was I? I was commenting on the non-binary people I know, in response to a question from WWM2, who asked what they were like.

There is probably a term for those who pick up on every bloody thing people on the other side of an argument post, however. Or will 'deliberately attempting to silence them' cover it?

I don't know the answer to your last question but I do think the trans part matters....

Because trans women (as one example) may face issues that women don't and need targeted support and vice versa.

I can think of lots of examples of this that I can give if you need them.

So I think it's important to have that distinction because although I accept trans women are women I want them to receive the support they need and I want women to receive the support they need too

VioletSky

Whitewavemark2

Can anyone tell me exactly what is meant by trans please as some of your posts don’t make sense by using my idea of the term.

Well realistically it originates in Latin like a lot of words...

Simplistically

Trans means "that side"

Which is why some use the word cis

Cis means "this side"

So someone who transitioned from male to female is trans

Then we have transition which now encompasses living as a different gender to the one you were assigned at birth to full surgery and everything in between

Right, so someone who has transitioned from one sex to the opposite sex by surgery and medication are known as trans.

I suppose it’s ok but seems a bit puerile to use such a term. To me anyone who has gone through such a successful transition isn’t a trans, they are their chosen sex. One should respect them as such and in my book that is not to identify them as anything different than their chosen sex.

So those acting out a gender role whilst remaining the opposite sex cannot be classed as trans?