Deliberate and orchestrated silencing of trans rights supporters on GN

trisher

Doodledog

And the reasons she was called TERF in the first place, trisher? Any comment on those?

Well if you bring into a discussion about trans matters your personal experience of assault you could be seen as using an emotional matter completely unconnected, to elicit support for your point of view. And it is undoubtedly phobic to say because you were assaulted by a man you fear transwomen. A phobia is after all an unjustifiable fear. So if JKR is saying she fears transwomen because a man assaulted her, how is that a justifiable fear? If her assault left her afraid of all men then that fear might be justified but she doesn't say that.

No, she says that because of her fear of assault by men she wants to be sure that they have not got access to places where she assumes she is safe because they are supposedly single-sex.

Now you may not agree with that, but you are really twisting what she says - at no point does she say that she fears transwomen because a man assaulted her. In fact, she is at pains to say that she wants transwomen to be safe too.

I’ve been reading this thread with interest and I’m learning a lot. Please be patient with me as I am not yet au fait with all the correct language related to this subject. With still so much to learn there is one question that I would like to ask, the answer to which may – or may not - help me to understand this complex subject. Please can someone let me know how many people in the UK fit the definition of transgender.

Doodledog

And the reasons she was called TERF in the first place, trisher? Any comment on those?

Well if you bring into a discussion about trans matters your personal experience of assault you could be seen as using an emotional matter completely unconnected, to elicit support for your point of view. And it is undoubtedly phobic to say because you were assaulted by a man you fear transwomen. A phobia is after all an unjustifiable fear. So if JKR is saying she fears transwomen because a man assaulted her, how is that a justifiable fear? If her assault left her afraid of all men then that fear might be justified but she doesn't say that.

And the reasons she was called TERF in the first place, trisher? Any comment on those?

trisher

I've read it and I find it highly inconsistent. She states at one point that her area of concern is transmen, or girls who choose to transition. Then she introduces her own experience of sexual assault and goes on to lambast transwomen. Well sorry the three things are in my opinion not linked and it is the linking which is transphobic. She was assaulted presumably by a man. And awful though it may be it is only in an attempt to create a sense of distrust that she brings it into the discussion, because no transwoman was involved. As for the transmen she professes to be concerned about well once she's onto transwomen they are forgotten about.

Anyone surprised by this?

I've read it and I find it highly inconsistent. She states at one point that her area of concern is transmen, or girls who choose to transition. Then she introduces her own experience of sexual assault and goes on to lambast transwomen. Well sorry the three things are in my opinion not linked and it is the linking which is transphobic. She was assaulted presumably by a man. And awful though it may be it is only in an attempt to create a sense of distrust that she brings it into the discussion, because no transwoman was involved. As for the transmen she professes to be concerned about well once she's onto transwomen they are forgotten about.

Yes thanks for the link Doodledog. I have read it before, but not for some time, it was good to refresh my memory. I'd echo Lucca I'd hope everybody would read it, but I doubt they will.

If anyone raises questions they are accused of being transphobic.

This is the crux of the disagreements on here (and elsewhere), I think. It is simply not possible to question or to have a different opinion without being accused of holding all manner of abhorrent opinions.

I don't feel remotely antagonistic (never mind 'phobic') about those who choose to live according to gender norms that differ from the ones usually associated with their sex.

I don't, however, believe that it is possible to change sex, and as a result of that disbelief (non-belief?) I do not support the right of M/F transpeople to compete against women in sport, or to make vulnerable women feel more so, or to make women feel uncomfortable by displaying male bodies in female-only areas.

I believe strongly in preserving the language so that women can, when necessary, be discussed in words that recognise that we are adult human females, and that transwomen are different, in the same way that they want to be recognised as different from men.

How do those things make me 'unkind'? Or discriminatory? Or right wing? Or homophobic? Or Nazi? I would really like answers to that, as have been called all of those things (and more) on here - ironically by the very people who are, according to the title of this thread, the victims of 'orchestrated silencing'.

Thank you to the link to JKR’s statement Doodledog It was good to read it in her own words.

Lucca I’m sorry.
You can know transgender people. You can even have friends who are transgender and understand that they have had difficulties trying to exist as transgender. That’s not transphobic.
What you can’t do is criticise cheats like Lia Thomas or rapists like Karen White and
those who insist on lumping all women either AHF or TW (women 2004 version) together with trans like that.
That’s what accusations of transphobia does.

Ah ok Lucca. It's possible.

Think that if you want to Mollygo. As always, I'm not up for an argument.

GagaJo

Sorry Lucca, I'm not sure what you mean? *What you do not accept is that anyone questioning aspects of “trans support” asking, expressing some doubts etc can still be supportive of transitioners and is not automatically transphobic.*

If anyone raises questions they are accused if being transphobic.

That article by jk Rowling which Doodledog posted is very interesting I hope everyone has read it.

GagaJo

Mollygo & Rose21, I'm not here to be dictated to. You know this by now.
Equally we are not hear you be dictated to, by anyone on here not even passive aggressively like saying “*I am kind* meaning you aren’t but you must start being kind!

I never mentioned JKR, someone else brought her into the discussion. I’ve certainly read the letters JKR in at least one of your posts, but if you say you haven’t
. . .
Usually on here, when asked to list anything that JKR has said that’s transphobic and posters can’t do that because . . .
they resort to saying they haven’t got time or to cries of plagiarism (which exists on GN a lot) or criticising her writing style. Ho hum!

I’ve read the Strike book. It doesn’t feature a trans person

jaylucy

Trans people have enough struggles to deal with , without someone that has never met them, has no idea of their journey, and is not likely to have any direct contact with them to begin spouting their own beliefs about the subject.

Who are you referring to that has never met them, has no idea of their journey, and is not likely to have any direct contact with them to begin spouting their own beliefs about the subject. ?

Is this silencing other opinions that differ to yours?

Trans people have enough struggles to deal with , without someone that has never met them, has no idea of their journey, and is not likely to have any direct contact with them to begin spouting their own beliefs about the subject.

Sorry Lucca, I'm not sure what you mean? What you do not accept is that anyone questioning aspects of “trans support” asking, expressing some doubts etc can still be supportive of transitioners and is not automatically transphobic.

Aveline

Gawd help the patriarchy!

Good précis volver ✅
I can stop reading any further posts now. Thank you.

Gawd help the patriarchy!

You are not the head prefect either.

No, I'm a person who doesn't have any strong views either way and has tried on a number of occasions to get some explanation of the whole thing.

Which generally evokes responses like "you've had your fun" or "it was polite until you turned up" or something similar. Then descent into jargon and TLAs that make the whole thing as clear as mud.

So here's what I think, not that anybody cares, I'm sure. We've got a group of people who will shout very loudly about safe spaces, and how a man can never be a woman, and how they'd never vote for a party that doesn't know what a woman is. And we've got a group of people that say all that is transphobia and we've all got to be open to accepting everyone's choices.

And anyone who thinks it's a storm in a teacup is a handmaiden of the patriarchy. Apparently.

GagaJo

There will be someone along who'll provide it I'm sure. Sorry if that seemed rude Lucca, it wasn't meant to.

I started the thread just as a public acknowledgement that just because we don't shout the loudest, that trans supporters do exist on GN. I'm no expert. It's just a personal POV.

I think everyone knew fine there are trans supporters on GN. What you do not accept is that anyone questioning aspects of “trans support” asking, expressing some doubts etc can still be supportive of transitioners and is not automatically transphobic.

GagaJo

Mollygo & Rose21, I'm not here to be dictated to. You know this by now.

I never mentioned JKR, someone else brought her into the discussion. Neither did I mention the Strike book. I doubt if any of us have read it.

This is a genial discussion. Not a 'go get me an answer' inquisition.

Rosie51 here not Rose21 I'm not attempting to dictate to anyone. I merely stated that nobody has ever quoted anything derogatory said by JKR. Because those statements do not exist. Yet the mantra is still chanted, and she still gets death and rape threats by the bucketload.

I've read the Strike book, it did not feature a transwoman.

* Just recently there was a raft of deletions because people dared to criticise one of your number. We were silenced.*

Yes, you mentioned this before, and I looked for these deletions but couldn't find them. Since we're not allowed to talk about other threads, I guess I'll never know!

The simple answer about JKR is that I don't know. I don't seek out trans stuff in the news and I was never a JKR fan so other than spending a fair amount of time Googling, I don't have an answer. I could moan on about what I see as the poor quality of her writing, but that isn't the topic at hand.

VioletSky
I am addressing this post to you. If I don't address you by name when I make other posts I am not addressing you directly, but in this post I am adressing you directly.

You state that transmen are men and transwomen are woman and I do think that you truly believe those statements.
The thing is though, other people do not believe the same thing.
I don't know where you live but I live in a large and very diverse city where the rights and convenience of different groups of people have to be taken into consideration, in an attempt to make society fair to everyone, as much as we can.

If we were to accept a blanket rule that transwomen are women and must be allowed into anywhere that is open to women, that will impact on other people, to their own detriment. Their feelings are just as important as the feelings of trans people.
You may know that lots of Muslims live in our city, and some of them want to have activities that are just for women, that is women who were born female. If, as an example, our current women only swimming groups (which happen at practically all our leisure centres) were to allow transwomen to attend , the Muslim women would just quietly stop attending and therefore stop swimming. Which would be to their detriment.
I know that you are a thoughful person who wants to be kind to other people so I wonder if you could give a bit of thought about how to balance these rights and requests between different groups.
You and I have previously agreed (in public) about how there could be compromise in the placing of trans people in prison.

I have mentioned this before on another thread but was told (not by you), that the thread was not the place to talk about it.