What is a woman?

Thanks for this trisher

I think some lesbians who have babies wouldn't want to think about a penis being involved.

To be honest, I wasn’t thinking about a penis at the time either, nor a turkey baster.

Rosie51

^Milk comes from a cow but I wouldn't say it had anything to do with putting it in my tea.^ not sure the equivalence of this but neither would you say it's the same as comes from a dog would you? And I assume you don't expect to get milk from a bull? Even if it identifies as a cow?

Rosie51 it's the end of a discussion about if a penis is necessary for a pregnancy.
The penis delivers semen, the cow milk. Neither needs to be present for the end product. A baby or a cup of tea.
I think some lesbians who have babies wouldn't want to think about a penis being involved.

Clothes are such a red herring, though. If you look at robes of the past (still there in the Church), or at jeans, or at Saudi men's clothing, or at shalwar khamis, or any number of examples it is clear that what is considered suitable for men and women changes over place and time. They are not what being a man or woman is about (as I realise you are saying, Madgran).

The bit I'm not sure about, after a billion threads, is what is it that people say is the essence of being a woman (or a man)? It's clearly about far more than fashion, so what is it, if it's not fetishistic more often than not?

If anything was ever going to change my mind about this it would be if someone could explain that to me in a way I understand (ie not 'it's just a feeling', or similar).

timetogo2016

I was born a baby girl, i grew to be a little girl then became a woman.
My brother was born a baby boy,grew to be a young lad and then became a man.
I wear female clothing,he wears male clothing.
That`s the nature of being a human male/female.

Yes - re born a girl or a boy and grew into a man or a woman

But the male/female clothes are a social construct not a biological fact and therefore not "the nature of being a human male/female"

Milk comes from a cow but I wouldn't say it had anything to do with putting it in my tea. not sure the equivalence of this but neither would you say it's the same as comes from a dog would you? And I assume you don't expect to get milk from a bull? Even if it identifies as a cow?

???
Your arms have the same tissue type as your legs, but you don't say they're exactly the same do you?
Well I wouldn’t, but . . .

I used to think all these problems would be solved by using the scientific terms, male and female instead of men and women.

Cynically, I think we would see a certain group of TW e fãs suddenly claiming to be TF instead.

It's a tired argument this tissue type. Yes ovaries and testes are the same tissue type too, they develop into different organs depending on the hormone influence they come under. Your arms have the same tissue type as your legs, but you don't say they're exactly the same do you?
No but nor would I say they were completely different and say my arms are OK but my legs keep on attacking people.

Milk comes from a cow but I wouldn't say it had anything to do with putting it in my tea.

trisher

Actually I believe a significant number of pregnancies are IVF or started in clinics these days. So not really just penis which impregnates.
And isn't the clitoris exactly the same tissue type as a penis?

You try ejaculating semen, or urinating from a clitoris, think you'll wait a long time.

Nobody not equipped with a penis and testicles is capable of producing the semen used to fertilise an ovum, regardless if that is done by sexual intercourse or by other methods.

It's a tired argument this tissue type. Yes ovaries and testes are the same tissue type too, they develop into different organs depending on the hormone influence they come under. Your arms have the same tissue type as your legs, but you don't say they're exactly the same do you?

Actually I believe a significant number of pregnancies are IVF or started in clinics these days. So not really just penis which impregnates.
And isn't the clitoris exactly the same tissue type as a penis?

timetogo2016

I was born a baby girl, i grew to be a little girl then became a woman.
My brother was born a baby boy,grew to be a young lad and then became a man.
I wear female clothing,he wears male clothing.
That`s the nature of being a human male/female.

'Nature'?

Clothing is natural?

I disagree. The repetition of the word 'penis' is used for effect in the piece. Penises are important in this debate. Many posters have differentiated between transwomen who have surgically transitioned and those who have remained intact (ie kept their penises). It's pretty obvious to me why that is.

As Kirkup points out, it is the penis that rapes, the penis that impregnates and the penis that is the most obvious physical difference between the sexes. Someone wanting to keep their penis but access areas that were made single-sex to keep penises out is really wanting to have their cake and eat it, and that is the crux of the debate, not tripping up politicians. If politicians would be straight about what they think, they wouldn't be in danger of being tripped up.

But he's not actually interested in the debate is he (James Kirkup) or in penises. He is interested in tripping up polititions.

Dismissing, challenging Freud and his view of hysterical women was one of the achievements of those 70’s feministd

All I can think is Freud would have loved to get his hands on James Kirkup! Talk about obsessive.
OK come on answer honestly how many people have you asked lately (or ever) "Do you have a penis?
Answer honestly and you realise how important that's been n your life.

I was born a baby girl, i grew to be a little girl then became a woman.
My brother was born a baby boy,grew to be a young lad and then became a man.
I wear female clothing,he wears male clothing.
That`s the nature of being a human male/female.

I think you're right about the tipping point Doodledog and I hope so.

Smileless2012

Maybe when he's asked again, he'll give an answer.

I think they're all waiting for a tipping point, and I also think that we're getting there.

Maybe when he's asked again, he'll give an answer.

Exactly Galaxy.

If anyone would rather vote tory and for Boris who clearly does not respect any of those with protected characteristics under the equality act because Starmer respects all of them....

Well, I guess they will at least suffer under tory rule with me

If starmer had been brave just this once there would have been a furore for ooh 2 days max. Whichever way he went, yes to penis or no to penis, there would have been a group of people very cross for a short period of time, and then he wouldnt have been asked the question again. This way he will be asked about a penis every week. I could weep. Not for womens rights but because Johnson, who is never shy at spotting a chance, will use it at every opportunity.

Why do people keep saying cis woman, I'm a WOMAN. Lib dems lost my vote when Jo Swinson kept banging on about cis women. Politically homeless now, won't vote Tory, and the others can't make up their minds about what is a woman .

Great article, thanks Baggs

With luck, Starmer will read it and stand up and be counted. As I said on the other thread though (or one of them - there are so many just now) it's really not as simple as that - speaking out against the trans lobby is risky. Ask JKR.
Absolutely, which is what makes me admire JKR so much. She's stood very much on her own, but fortunately even though she keeps giving her money away by the bucketful, she's too rich for them to cancel her, try as they might. It's to be hoped that enough will gather courage and stand up together. When you give in to bullies they are never satisfied and just bully more.

Doodledog

That article nails it.

With luck, Starmer will read it and stand up and be counted. As I said on the other thread though (or one of them - there are so many just now) it's really not as simple as that - speaking out against the trans lobby is risky. Ask JKR.

Thanks Baggs for posting the article.
Thanks Doodledog for your accurate summing up.

That article nails it.

With luck, Starmer will read it and stand up and be counted. As I said on the other thread though (or one of them - there are so many just now) it's really not as simple as that - speaking out against the trans lobby is risky. Ask JKR.