the law as it stands on sex

Trisher
My solution makes no requirement of a transwomen. But means that cis women can access the care they need.

???

My solution makes no requirement of a transwomen either, except that they do not fraudulently misrepresent themselves as biological females when I ask for a biological female.
They simply need not appear and show me any certification. They need only not appear at all.

Your statement implies that
all transwomen cannot be trusted enough not to fraudulently misrepresent themselves

I think that’s rather unfair of you. I would have thought it applied only to a few TW, but hey, you’re the one supporting that group so if you think they are untrustworthy, I’ll take your word for it.

Does anyone besides trisher
really think that NO tw can be trusted enough not to fraudulently misrepresent themselves
by presenting themselves when a female has been asked for?
Does anyone, even trisher, think that seeing a declaration or certificate that the AHF asking is a biological female would make any difference if the honesty of a TW couldn’t be relied on before?

It's not always advisable to respond on how we feel and nothing else is it DL. You can feel an emotion but not outwardly express it or make it known in other ways.

I remember how I felt many years ago when my brother told he was gay. I felt sad and afraid for him because I knew that given his chosen profession, life would not be easy for him.

He's never known that. All he knows is that his sister put her arms around him and told him how much she loved him and how proud she was. That's all he needed to know and all he'll ever know.

Elegran please know that I am not saying you are doing any of those things. I do understand the genuine needs of many women, I am one.

I just think there is room to make more space. Not give up space, create more.

VioletSky

Maybe it is different for me, I've come from a very bigoted background with generations of family estrangements because people wanted others to either conform to their ideals or just put their wants first, even if those wants were to thoroughly trample their own child's needs and self esteem into the ground to get what they want or feel better about themselves...

It's my way or the highway destroys family relationships and we have to allow room for people to be their authentic selves.

So it's really important to me that cycle stops in my family

We don't want people to conform to our ideals. they can conform to their own ideals and be whatever they want to be. They can present as men, women, or whatever they want in between. They can wear what they like.

However, they are living in a world containing other people, where the ones who they are emulating (the problem is men emulating women, mostly, as those women who present as men don't seem to cause as much controversy) have spent a long time and a lot of blood, tears and sweat fighting for spaces free of male domination and male intrusion into their safe spaces, built their own system of sports competition where women compete against women on a level playing field, and won the right to choose a female (not just a pseudo-female) for medical treatment. If the anomalies caused by men being able to be classed legally as women in any and all areas are not ironed out NOW, our grandchildren will have to start from scratch doing it all over again.

This is not attacking trans people, or saying they shouldn't exist, or discriminating against them. It is saying that there needs to be open and amicable discussion on how to keep the progress that generations of women have fought for, and open discussion means that it MUST be open to us to say what we believe is true - that biological sex matters.

Chewbacca

Doodledog your post @ 11.54 is absolutely spot on in every regard. 're the last paragraph: No astonishment here!

Please explain to me, given your previous accusations that I am a bully... How this comment stands up

If I were saying the things you are saying in conversation here, I would rightly be reported for making personal attacks as part of a group, ie bullying.

Who is the bully now?

Excellent post Rosie. "He and we have to make many adjustments so as not to infringe on other people's rights". As you say, if you can do this with a child, why can't adults do the same for themselves.

It's horrific grannygranby, there's no other word for it.

VioletSky

Diamondlily I don't know what to do with your reply except

Well, I don't know. I don't know` how I would feel if my adult grandchildren suddenly wanted to change gender.

I would still love them, they are my grandchildren. But I don't know how I would feel.

It's not happened.?

I believe gender dysphoria exists obviously. I don't believe you can change sex. And many countries are now saying watchful waiting is the most appropriate response.

Rosie with autism, and probably with other issues too, like women who have been through trauma and need a safe space.... Yes we do create that for them and have others respect that.

Yes I do expect others to make a little room for my child who is autistic. Because she wants to go shopping and perhaps gets sensory overload and may have stims or other ways of coping that others don't understand. Or she may shout at me or someone who touches her. Or she may point out something about someone they find rude. Or she might need to wear her favourite leggings that have holes but she needs that comfort others don't understand. It's my job to help her navigate this because eventually she will learn to mask in all situations but masking has consequences for autistic people.

This is why when I see a child getting frowned at for their behaviour I will always offer support not judgement. Even if that's just a smile and a "you are doing a great job".

Like you Galaxy and I'm sure everyone here who posts on this subject, I wouldn't be discriminatory.

I don't discriminate against the trans community now, I simply don't support anyone or group who seeks to gain what they consider to be equal rights at the expense of others, because that has nothing to do with inclusivity.

Chewbacca

Doodledog your post @ 11.54 is absolutely spot on in every regard. 're the last paragraph: No astonishment here!

I acknowledge that I have read your post, Chewbacca.

Latest news from journalist in Kyiv “ At least 25 women and girls, as young as 14, were raped by Russians in one basement in Bucha. Nine of them are pregnant. Russian soldiers said “they would rape them to the point where they wouldn't want sexual contact with any man, to prevent them from having Ukrainian children." this is now, in Europe, this is the fact of sex not gender, this is why sex is a protected category. No transwomen will suffer this. It is not a belief. It is an animal reality we are mammals, from mammary glands, we suckle young a dimorphic species, two sexes.
Primary apes have always killed offspring, and raped females to impregnate them in war. Chimpanzees do. Have we evolved that much?
No sadly no.
Biologically males and females are different, socially and in law we should have equality but should enjoy some protections when physically vulnerable. It is so obvious and so simple.
Transwomen are transwomen I think they should get over it. Btw, and I must get back to work, I think galaxy said that granny ( me? nom de plume because on gransnet ) said that I dismissed T and VS because they disagreed with me. Did they? I just read their postings in general and saw the twisting. No idea whether they agreed with me or not.

I have previously stated I have a grandchild with severe autism and learning difficulties who has to attend a very specialised school. That makes him a member of a minority. Many, many avenues of life are not open to him. He and we have to make many adjustments so as not to infringe on other people's comfort and rights. We do not allow him his natural behaviour in certain circumstances but remove him from the space because it would negatively impact on other people. If we can do this with a child why can't adults police their own behaviour especially when they know they are or may be causing distress? Or should we just say, blow the rest of you, if he wants/needs to behave this way you just budge up and make room?

Maybe it is different for me, I've come from a very bigoted background with generations of family estrangements because people wanted others to either conform to their ideals or just put their wants first, even if those wants were to thoroughly trample their own child's needs and self esteem into the ground to get what they want or feel better about themselves...

It's my way or the highway destroys family relationships and we have to allow room for people to be their authentic selves.

So it's really important to me that cycle stops in my family

Doodledog your post @ 11.54 is absolutely spot on in every regard. 're the last paragraph: No astonishment here!

Diamondlily I don't know what to do with your reply except

VioletSky

The thing I always wonder, especially watching my children grow up, is does anyone ever think about their descendants?

Would you be happy to say what you do if you had a grandchild who was tansitioning?

Would you respect their pronouns?

Would you ignore when they were discriminated against and received abuse just for existing?

This is why I keep my language inclusive in all things

Isn't this a bit of a contradiction?

You, and Trisher say that we cannot possibly know the difference (by looking), who is a biological female and who is TW.

I think you can, actually, there are always subtle indicators, but that's a separate discussion.

If you are right though, how and by whom, would any discrimination occur?

Everyone would think they were women.

Unless, of course, they were whipping out their penis's, screaming they are women, as has happened at some demos and protests. ?

As for my grandchildren, well, I can't speak hypothetically. Presently, as young adults, they are perfectly cheerful with remaining how nature made them.?

It sincerely does not present as a belief in any way

Maybe you would believe it if you were around children with gender dysphoria

I would follow latest guidance which is saying not enough data on social affirmation. I obviously wouldnt discriminate against them. That doesnt mean I would believe what they do. The same as if they became religious.

The thing I always wonder, especially watching my children grow up, is does anyone ever think about their descendants?

Would you be happy to say what you do if you had a grandchild who was tansitioning?

Would you respect their pronouns?

Would you ignore when they were discriminated against and received abuse just for existing?

This is why I keep my language inclusive in all things

VioletSky

Why should the onus be on trans people? That's the very definition of discrimination, to say "your group must do this for us (normal lol) people"

Make it open to everyone and those who want their relevant information stored (which with my idea would actually be beneficial to them) could choose to do so

So, you're saying that the vast majority (biological females), should change what they do to cater for a very small minority (TW)?

How does that work??

trisher

grannysyb

As I have said earlier I am a woman, why should I have to register as a cis woman, and if I want to be seen by a woman who is an adult human female in a professional capacity why can't I just say that?

Well I suppose it depends on if you are more interested in getting stuff done or in registering your particular preference. As I said before you can't really blame transwomen for demanding their preferences be listened to and acnowledged if you insist yours must be. So the pragmatic thing to do would seem to be setting up a voluntary cis woman register, then those who need a cis-woman can get one.If you are so hung up on language you can't accept that, you could be accused of putting your own interests before vulnerable women's

In the medical profession, aren't the interests and wishes of the patient supposed to take priority?

Our wishes and dignity protected at all times?

That's what my hospital's "statement of reason" always says.?

So, on that basis, if I state I want to see a female, for certain procedures, then that's what I want.

A biological female - not a biological man telling himself, and trying to tell me, that he's a woman.

He's not - he's a biological man identifying as a woman.

Two different things.

Why should the onus be on trans people? That's the very definition of discrimination, to say "your group must do this for us (normal lol) people"

Make it open to everyone and those who want their relevant information stored (which with my idea would actually be beneficial to them) could choose to do so

grannysyb

As I have said earlier I am a woman, why should I have to register as a cis woman, and if I want to be seen by a woman who is an adult human female in a professional capacity why can't I just say that?

I agree.

I'm not a "CIS woman", I'm a adult female.

I'm the original and natural type of woman.

Why would I have to register that?

Let those who want to act as a different gender do any registering.?