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the law as it stands on sex

(1000 Posts)
grannygranby Tue 29-Mar-22 14:29:35

I think we should look at the law and stop fuffing about.
A transwoman can rape a woman a transman cant. In law rape is only about penises not gender.
However presently in law gender trumps sex, as a person with a penis is legally a woman if they say they are a woman with some checks. That is the law now. That is why the NHS has changed rules, the police the courts and lavatories and sport and girl guides, everything follows from a law change.
All political parties now wish to push this further and declare that checks are hurtful to people with penises who feel they are women and they should be legally declared women if they say so (self-ID) and be able to access all safeguarding previously, since time immemorial, has protected people without penises from those that do. For obvious reasons.
This is incredibly important and must be discussed openly and fully without fear or favour.

FarNorth Tue 29-Mar-22 14:38:33

In law, gender does not trump sex.
That is the wishful-thinking version that Stonewall has been presenting to everyone and many who should know better have fallen for it and are acting as though it is true.

GrannyGravy13 Tue 29-Mar-22 14:44:30

🤫

Madgran77 Tue 29-Mar-22 14:53:28

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/our-statement-sex-and-gender-reassignment-legal-protections-and-language

Ilovecheese Tue 29-Mar-22 14:55:19

FarNorth is correct. it is not the law. That was an assumption made by Stonewall that the law would be changed. It was not.

Lucca Tue 29-Mar-22 14:55:28

GrannyGravy13

🤫

😂

grannygranby Tue 29-Mar-22 15:01:08

Here is a statement of legal fact: some women have penises.
This has been the case since (at least) 2004 and the passage of the Gender Recognition Act. That law allows a person who meets certain criteria to change their legal gender and be treated, to all intents and purposes, as being of the opposite sex. So a person who was born male and is later issued with a Gender Recognition Certificate is legally female.
Crucially, the qualifying criteria do not include ‘sex reassignment surgery’ to the genitals. It is legally possible in the UK for a person with a penis to be recognised as female. When the GRA was passed, parliament implicitly assumed that it was legislating for a small number (perhaps hundreds) of people who were then largely known as transsexuals.
Some people now consider that term offensive or at least outdated, because they regard gender identity (which has little or no basis in anatomy) to supersede physical sex. Hence the widespread linguistic shift from ‘transsexual’ to ‘transgender’.
That shift is seismically important, and its importance is ultimately about penises. It means that people with penises can identify themselves as women, and thus obtain the rights and status society grants women – including access to those single-sex spaces that were hitherto penis-free.

GagaJo Tue 29-Mar-22 15:04:30

I used to love Germaine Greer. She has, unfortunately, lost her edge (and some would say the plot too). I think she's being contentious, trying to stay relevant.

GrannyGravy13 Tue 29-Mar-22 15:07:27

grannygranby women have been led blindfolded into this ridiculous situation, women are the ones who will suffer in the long run (no change there)

How any sane person can actually think that a woman has a penis is totally incomprehensible…

GrannyGravy13 Tue 29-Mar-22 15:09:18

GagaJo

I used to love Germaine Greer. She has, unfortunately, lost her edge (and some would say the plot too). I think she's being contentious, trying to stay relevant.

Not at all, she is making the point that…

a women is not born with a penis, doesn’t suddenly naturally grow a penis, never has and never will

Spinnaker Tue 29-Mar-22 15:12:39

GrannyGravy13

🤫

Excellent grin

GillT57 Tue 29-Mar-22 15:13:06

GagaJo

I used to love Germaine Greer. She has, unfortunately, lost her edge (and some would say the plot too). I think she's being contentious, trying to stay relevant.

I think she has hit the nail on the head personally. This is a woman who lived through the sexual revolution, who fought for women to be recognised, and it is tragic if she is now dismissed. I am sure she upset an awful lot of men in her day, and it is sad if she is now being sneered at by the very women whose rights she fought for.

DiamondLily Tue 29-Mar-22 15:14:08

GrannyGravy13

GagaJo

I used to love Germaine Greer. She has, unfortunately, lost her edge (and some would say the plot too). I think she's being contentious, trying to stay relevant.

Not at all, she is making the point that…

*a women is not born with a penis, doesn’t suddenly naturally grow a penis, never has and never will*

Bang on. And Ms Greer has it exactly right. 👍

grannygranby Tue 29-Mar-22 15:19:07

there are three options open to us and the government and all political parties should be addressing:
1) repeal the GRA and say no person with a penis is a woman (this would mean people who have had surgery to change their sex and removed their penises would legally be entitled to be women)

2) leave things as they are (keep GRA no changes)

3) invite even more people with penises able to say they are women. (what the transactivists and 'progressives want, including all the political parties at present!)

This should be made clear. I have three grandaughters I want the law to protect safe spaces for them.

trisher Tue 29-Mar-22 15:19:28

GillT57

GagaJo

I used to love Germaine Greer. She has, unfortunately, lost her edge (and some would say the plot too). I think she's being contentious, trying to stay relevant.

I think she has hit the nail on the head personally. This is a woman who lived through the sexual revolution, who fought for women to be recognised, and it is tragic if she is now dismissed. I am sure she upset an awful lot of men in her day, and it is sad if she is now being sneered at by the very women whose rights she fought for.

I always liked her solution to unwanted babies and birth control. She wanted every male to bank sperm in a sperm bank as he reached maturity. He would then undergo a vasectomy. Result baby-free sex for all. When he met a partner he wanted to have a baby with they drew on the sperm bank.
Bit extreme for many though.

eazybee Tue 29-Mar-22 15:23:45

Oh no!
Not another thread on this subject.

Fennel Tue 29-Mar-22 15:33:07

I could be imagining it, or it may be from fiction, but I seem to remember a TV programme about a woman in charge of a brothel who had a penis. Maybe it was an enlarged clitoris?
Poor person, if true.

GagaJo Tue 29-Mar-22 15:55:28

It's not just this issue. I think she's just trying to stay in the media.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/germaine-greer-rape-victims-sexual-assault-trauma-fear-spiders-a8542626.html

www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/beyonce-germaine-greer-naked-feminism-clothes-bbc-a8390261.html

sheerluxe.com/culture/can-germaine-greer-still-be-called-feminist

Geordiegirl1 Tue 29-Mar-22 15:56:41

In law, rape can be committed without a penis.

GagaJo Tue 29-Mar-22 16:02:02

Geordiegirl1

In law, rape can be committed without a penis.

Can it? There was another thread with this query in it and there was discussion about it. Some said it could, some said a penis was required to make it rape rather than sexual assault.

trisher Tue 29-Mar-22 16:33:33

GagaJo

Geordiegirl1

In law, rape can be committed without a penis.

Can it? There was another thread with this query in it and there was discussion about it. Some said it could, some said a penis was required to make it rape rather than sexual assault.

Not in the UK. US law is different it classifies rape as penetration by a penis or another implement. In UK law only penetration by a penis is rape. Penetration by anything else is assault by penetration. Both crimes carry a maximum life sentence, but I do think rape would be regarded as a more serious and assault by penetration doesn't sound as bad
www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/rape-and-sexual-offences-chapter-7-key-legislation-and-offences

Madgran77 Tue 29-Mar-22 16:43:09

I do think rape would be regarded as a more serious and assault by penetration doesn't sound as bad

Shoving something inside another person's body whether it is a penis or any other suitably or unsuitably shaped instrument seems equally bad! If the first was considered more serious than the second then whoever is making that judgement isn't really fit for the job!!

MerylStreep Tue 29-Mar-22 16:43:47

GranyGravy
Soooooooo good. 😂👏👏👏👏👏👏

Chewbacca Tue 29-Mar-22 17:01:03

In law, rape can be committed without a penis. Wrong.

GG13 Germaine Greer has nailed it. Perhaps those who disagree are the same ones who go to a pantomime and think that the 2 men in a costume is a real horse on stage.

Madgran77 Tue 29-Mar-22 17:37:45

I think she's being contentious, trying to stay relevant

I don't agree. She remains totally relevant in many of her statements about Feminism, earlier ones and ones she makes today.

She most certainly does not deserve to be summarily dismissed! Her age does not exclude her from a right to express her views as forcefully as she wishes just as she has always done. Her early feminist writings were certainly considered "contentious" ...thank goodness that didn't shut her up though, as I suspect without her and several other strong, intelligent, "feisty/difficult/ unfeminine/ noisy/ stupid/men hating women" (all things I heard said about them in my youth!) then women would not be where they are today in many areas of life. Still plenty of way to go though!

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