Coming out as transgender

Rosie51

^So my questing is valid; does that take priority over everything else?^ For most, probably not. In combination with any other concerns they may have it could be a tipping point.

Theoretical question. Why should any woman vote for any party that can't define what a woman is and has no interest in securing her rights or protections, and furthermore describes her as a bigot, dinosaur and worse for thinking they should view her concerns as valid? You don't have to answer but...............

Well, you're making quite a jump there.

Accusations that every party member who is circumspect about how they phrase things to avoid the wrath of the gender critical is a misogynist who doesn't care about women. (I'm learning the jargon, forgive me if I've got it wrong)

Its extreme and its exaggerated.

Nannee49

I've already said it's a cross-party issue for me trisher.
Being perfectly capable of evaluating a movement myself, I'm in no need of your semantics and obfuscation as to whether or not these women are blue, red or sky blue pink with a finny haddy border.
Nor reminding "what have the Tories ever done for women?" like a bad Monty Python sketch.

I want all political parties to be respectful of my rights and sensibilities as a woman and to be shown to be so.

How is it semantics or obfuscation if one of the women was a Tory councillor and one of the others was a director of 3 companies? Are you suggesting I made it up? Or that these women are not likely to have Tory sympathies?
Their claiming connections to the suffragettes is interesting but perhaps unintentionally revealing. The suffragettes managed to get votes for middle class women in 1918. Working class women didn't have the right to vote until 1928
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

So my questing is valid; does that take priority over everything else? For most, probably not. In combination with any other concerns they may have it could be a tipping point.

Theoretical question. Why should any woman vote for any party that can't define what a woman is and has no interest in securing her rights or protections, and furthermore describes her as a bigot, dinosaur and worse for thinking they should view her concerns as valid? You don't have to answer but...............

Doodledog

*So, frankly, stop pretending we're picking on you and see what others are writing. Then we might have a proper conversation.*

I'm not pretending anything. I am careful to speak for myself, and not lump all so-called 'gender critical' people together, is all. Perhaps you might stop telling me my motives? Then we might be able to have a conversation.

I'm sure that others will be equally sick of the lazy and inaccurate assumptions made against us, but will leave it to them to say so if they want to.

I'm sure that others will be equally sick of the lazy and inaccurate assumptions made against us, but will leave it to them to say so if they want to.

There are people on this site who make comments that, if they were transferred to other minority groups, would be instantly identifiable as hate speech, or at the very least discrimination. I have mentioned two above.

So, protestations about how you're all the victims of false accusations don't cut it. Instead of making it all about you, acknowledge that there are transphobic people. It's really not that hard.

I don't know what people would do in that situation, and neither do you

I agree. That's why I'm asking

I'm not invested in how you personally vote Rosie51, so you don't need to keep telling m based on party lines. But whether you like it or not, there are a significant number of people who say they would never vote for a party that doesn't know what a woman is. So my questing is valid; does that take priority over everything else? Would people subsume any concerns about the economy, or the NHS, or defence, because of this one issue? Do people think its that important? Perfectly reasonable question.

So, frankly, stop pretending we're picking on you and see what others are writing. Then we might have a proper conversation.

I'm not pretending anything. I am careful to speak for myself, and not lump all so-called 'gender critical' people together, is all. Perhaps you might stop telling me my motives? Then we might be able to have a conversation.

I'm sure that others will be equally sick of the lazy and inaccurate assumptions made against us, but will leave it to them to say so if they want to.

I've already said it's a cross-party issue for me trisher.
Being perfectly capable of evaluating a movement myself, I'm in no need of your semantics and obfuscation as to whether or not these women are blue, red or sky blue pink with a finny haddy border.
Nor reminding "what have the Tories ever done for women?" like a bad Monty Python sketch.

I want all political parties to be respectful of my rights and sensibilities as a woman and to be shown to be so.

And as I said before, I live in a safe seat, my vote wouldn't make a difference in the outcome.

Because pretending we cant generally identify sex is a lie. Nothing to do with clothes or presentation. If you look at someone who presents in a stereotypically female way at times, say greyson perry I am able to identify his sex. I dont have a superpower, most people have this ability.

volver

*Rosie51*, do you understand how arguments work? Debate, that kind of thing?

The 3 women are asking the penis question. There are people on here saying that they could never vote for a party that doesn't know what a woman is. So I think my question is justified. If someone won't vote for a party who they say doesn't know what a woman is, will they then vote for a party that says they do know what a woman is but sorry, we're going to sell off the NHS?

Because while transgender rights are very important, having a working economy and an NHS that is fit for purpose is important too, too important to be sacrificed to the Culture Wars.

You don't have to answer. Just be aware what the silence implies.

You don't have to answer. Just be aware what the silence implies. wow, I really don't know what to say to that, it feels threatening? intimidating? bullying?

If someone won't vote for a party who they say doesn't know what a woman is, will they then vote for a party that says they do know what a woman is but sorry, we're going to sell off the NHS? I don't know what people would do in that situation, and neither do you, although I doubt any politician of any hue would be honest enough to say anything so clearly. I think most people are more intelligent and reasonable than you're giving them credit for.
Transgender rights are important and should be equal to any other human's rights. The problem occurs where transgender rights come into conflict with other groups. Whose rights take priority? There can't always be compromise. A single sex space cannot allow compromise. As soon as you allow male people, no matter how they present into a single female sex area it has become mixed sex. For the vast majority of places or aspects of life etc it matters not one jot. For those few areas where it does matter, health and criminal statistics are two such areas which are less frequently mentioned in the media, it needs to be strictly adhered to.
Obviously the economy, NHS, education, social justice are the most important aspects of government. I think the question about a penis is unnecessarily framed, but it is true that what you can't define you can't defend.
You said in an earlier post that it wasn't personal to me, yet you've made this post very personal. I won't vote Tory, LibDem or Green. I'm struggling with some aspects of Labour, if I don't vote Labour it will be a spoiled ballot paper or an independent who inspires me (if one is standing in my constituency)

It always amuses me when the gender critical come out with "how does a woman present" ? Or "I don't want to be identified by the way I dress" but also post "transwomen are easily identified" "transwomen look like men in a dress". Isn't there a little conflict between the two points of view?

I acknowledge your posts Galaxy, thank you.

Nannee49

What's "respect my sex if you want my X" got to do with the Tories in particular trisher? It cuts across all parties for me.
It seems a bit like you're using the nastiness of the Tory party in an validation of your point ie the women behind this movement are nasty Tories so don't give it any credence. Or have I got it wrong?

Look whose running the campaign linked to and then answer this question
What have the Tories ever done for women?
Far more important than the possibility of a penis on someone who looks like a woman.

Galaxy

Yes thats right trisher we are all tories.
You arent debating though volver you are mostly just shouting bigot. As I pointed out toilets are easily solved, mixed sex and single sex. Or individual cubicles enclosed with sinks. I always find it interesting that the debate is pulled back to toilets and the tricky issues of prisons sport etc etc that people ignore.

Perhaps because people don't really want answers like transgender wings in prisons- which are being set up.
Or a proper process for women's sport which doesn't discriminate against natal women.
Nobody who supports transrights has said there aren't problems but the gender critical don't want to listen to solutions.
There are an awful lot of right wingers on GN. You may not be one but some are and some just don't want to see Labour in power, so any excuse is latched onto.

Doodledog

How often do I have to say that I'm not lumping everybody together, but lots of people are?

I have justification for the things I write, because they've been posted here on this site by other posters. So, frankly, stop pretending we're picking on you and see what others are writing. Then we might have a proper conversation.

What's "respect my sex if you want my X" got to do with the Tories in particular trisher? It cuts across all parties for me.
It seems a bit like you're using the nastiness of the Tory party in an validation of your point ie the women behind this movement are nasty Tories so don't give it any credence. Or have I got it wrong?

Rosie51, do you understand how arguments work? Debate, that kind of thing?

The 3 women are asking the penis question. There are people on here saying that they could never vote for a party that doesn't know what a woman is. So I think my question is justified. If someone won't vote for a party who they say doesn't know what a woman is, will they then vote for a party that says they do know what a woman is but sorry, we're going to sell off the NHS?

Because while transgender rights are very important, having a working economy and an NHS that is fit for purpose is important too, too important to be sacrificed to the Culture Wars.

You don't have to answer. Just be aware what the silence implies.

And let's be absolutely clear about this. It is a class and privilege issue because women earning less are still earning less. Although the number of women sitting in board rooms has increased. If you want to do something for women get them decent part time pay
Around 25% of female employees had hourly pay below the voluntary living wage rate (as set by the Living Wage Foundation) at April 2020, compared to 18% of male employees. At April 2020, the living wage was £10.75 for people working in London and £9.50 for those working outside of London.11
The Resolution Foundation reports that 57% of low paid employees in 2020 were women, and women, particularly those working part-time, have therefore been the biggest beneficiaries of a recent reduction in low pay. The proportion of women working part-time in low pay fell by 7% between 2019 and 2020.12
researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06838/SN06838.pdf

Galaxy

You have never heard me say any of those things so maybe you could stop 'lumping people into a group' too. Sone of the worst homophobia and racism I have seen has been by some who argue TWAW . There is bigotry everywhere. I think telling women that their sex is unimportant is bigotry to be honest.
I dont think wanting single sex spaces is bigotry, in fact I think taking those spaces away is misogyny.

Agreed, Galaxy. 100%.

I object to being assumed to be bigoted, and to the assumption that I hold reactionary views straight out of 'gammon' central casting. I don't. I am concerned about women losing rights and agency, and believe that the rights of transwomen are in danger of eclipsing the rights of women. I would like to see a dialogue about this, but every time I try (or see others try) there are screams of 'transphobia', or snide and unpleasant digs and insinuations.

I have never felt that transpeople are akin to predatory old men, and I strongly object to the insinuation that I might think that. In fact, I am utterly sick of the bigotry and lack of nuance in the posts of TRAs on here who fling about accusations of homophobia, racism and so on with absolutely no justification. It's lazy, ignorant and baseless.

I do my best to remain calm in these discussions, even though I am bored of saying the same thing to the same people over and over, but right now I feel like lying down in a darkened room.

How often do we have to say that we are not transphobic?? That we know and care about transpeople? That it is not transpeople who are the issue, but the TRAs who push into women's spaces, take over women's roles, dominate women's events and so on?? That the trans cause is harmed, not helped by the so-called 'allies' who tell us to 'be kind' and accuse us of holding offensive and unconscionable views that we have spent our lives opposing??

I am now going to the bottom of the garden to bang my head against the wall. Apologies if this post has covered or ignored things that others said whilst I was typing it.

I take back 'you arent debating' I didnt see ypur post

Sorry volver I cross posted there and didnt see your response. That goes both ways as I have said I have seen bigotry go both ways.

Yes thats right trisher we are all tories.
You arent debating though volver you are mostly just shouting bigot. As I pointed out toilets are easily solved, mixed sex and single sex. Or individual cubicles enclosed with sinks. I always find it interesting that the debate is pulled back to toilets and the tricky issues of prisons sport etc etc that people ignore.

Quite. Last time the excuse was 'Anyone but Corbyn.' I wonder what the excuse will be this time? Oh yes, 'I can't vote for someone that things TWAW.'

Ad infinitum.

Are you saying that protecting the safety of women and girls is the lowest priority of all for you? That standard of debate doesn't even merit an answer.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Given this was your question to me
Is it more important that a politician says women can't have penises, than protecting the NHS and giving places to Ukrainian refugees? Come on!

Galaxy

You have never heard me say any of those things so maybe you could stop 'lumping people into a group' too. Sone of the worst homophobia and racism I have seen has been by some who argue TWAW . There is bigotry everywhere. I think telling women that their sex is unimportant is bigotry to be honest.
I dont think wanting single sex spaces is bigotry, in fact I think taking those spaces away is misogyny.

No Galaxy, I've never see anything like that from you or most of the other people here. But I have seen it from a significant minority.

So protestations of how other people are bigoted too doesn't negate the fact that there are people who are bigoted about trans women. And straw men arguments about me not caring about women's safety (which I know wasn't you) don't help the cause either. It makes the people making the comments look extreme, and not very tolerant.

So a little bit of acceptance that some of those who are concerned about single sex spaces and all the rest of it can also be bigots and make negative assumptions about people, wouldn't go amiss.