War crimes in Ukraine

Iam64

Maddyone - great action by those young soldiers. I accept British troops have been involved in cruelty and worse. It isn’t part of their training or culture to rape children (and women)on a massive scale, in front of their loved ones.

Thank you Iam. My Dad was a lovely, caring man, but the other soldiers must have been caring too. When I see what is going on in Ukraine I feel horror and repulsion, as we all do. I just put that true story in the thread to illustrate that not all soldiers and armies behave in such a vile way. But I think we all know that.

It’s absolutely sickening what is being reported and captured for future prosecutions. How is this evil man and his barbaric actions ever going to be stopped? I haven’t a clue without starting something that the world may regret. But he must be stopped somehow.

"Civilisation is a thin veneer". I wonder if we all just got too complacent.

I am absolutely horrified by the suffering of ordinary people in Ukraine. The news today is appalling. The cruelty inflicted on innocent civilians is unbearable - raped, tortured, murdered then left in the street like rubbish. Such evil.

Maddyone - great action by those young soldiers. I accept British troops have been involved in cruelty and worse. It isn’t part of their training or culture to rape children (and women)on a massive scale, in front of their loved ones.

I keep thinking that too Gill and PECS. In fact the night before this started the tv news showed people going to the theatre , cinema and restaurants in Kyiv. Just normal life. It can all turn on a sixpence. I feel for them all, wherever they are. They are people as we are. Good and bad, happy and sad.

GillT37 indeed it is shocking and it makes us feel very vulnerable because of that familiarity of lifestyle.
Whereas with equally devastating conflicts, with more unfamiliar p
cultures, we generally do not display such empathy or level of concern.

Guaranteed that Putin will not be put to trial.

But he certainly should not be rewarded in any way for his invasion.

Oh I see, white feathers, of course. That was cruel.
I was thinking of women actually using violence or abuse. Of course it can happen but rarely compared to men.
In my 20 years of child protection the few cases where a woman was involved in sexual or other abuse they were usually under the influence of a partner who led it all. In the case of West and Hindley, think they were probably as bad, but the women I knew had chosen the partner over their children and turned a blind eye. Terrible.

Soldiers can be kind too. My father fought in the last months of WW2. He was fighting in the push into Germany in Jan/Feb 1945. He was in a battle in Belgium, a village in Belgium. The people who lived in the village had run away into the hills to hide whilst the battle was fought. He was in a large house on one side of the valley with his unit, the Germans were in another large building across the valley. His unit came across two children, a boy and a girl aged about five and six. The soldiers took these children into the house for safety. They cared for them for the five or six days of the battle. Dad told me that they heated water and washed them, they fed them, and they made up little beds for them at night. When the battle was over the people returned to the village. The grandmother ran towards her grandchildren, flapping her large white apron, and waving her arms. She couldn’t thank the British soldiers enough for the lives of her grandchildren. My Dad was 19 years old.

Not sure what is meant by women egging men on to commit violent acts.

I was thinking of things like the women giving white feathers to non combatant men in WW1.

It is hard to comprehend that just about 6 weeks ago, the people of Ukraine were going about their lives such as we do; going to work, meeting friends, popping out for a coffee, arguing, laughing, having a moan. Then in these few short weeks they are living in a cellar, cat in a carrier, suitcase with what they can grab, no food, no water, no medication, no sanitary facilities. No knowing where they will be in a few days time.

I heard on the news a little while ago that the Russians are told that these people were killed by the Ukrainians themselves - for opposing the Russian invasion.

I’m afraid it’s probably true that many believe what they’re told.
And presumably anyone who doesn’t - who knows how many? - is too afraid to say so, for fear of being imprisoned/beaten up/tortured.

As others have said, the Russian military has always been feared. Brutality and rape as a weapon of war ever present.
Yes atrocities happen in war or armed conflict but some armies encourage them

Not sure what is meant by women egging men on to commit violent acts. I would not agree with that. Obviously there are some evil women but most are not .
Men in groups/ gangs seem to egg each other on and it is rare, and brave, for a man to call up bad behaviour. We have this problem now with sexism and are calling on men to speak up when behaviour towards women and girls is inappropriate. Do they? Not sure they do, so it goes on.
The Russians have always been feared and their behaviour during and after ww2 was terrible but the allies did not do cover themselves in glory either by their treatment towards the starved local population, in particular the young women and girls. I know, my mum was there. I was too, but too young to understand.
War is a terrible thing and it’s the ordinary people who always suffer.

Is it just men?

There were apparently some 3,500 female guards working in concentration camps in Nazi Germany. Irma Grese is possibly the most well known. Some were executed for their crimes after the war. Ravensbruck was staffed entirely by women.
There are some infamous female murderers such as Myra Hindley and Rose West. Many mothers have been convicted of violence and the murder of their own children, or of allowing their partner to murder their children.
We are seeing increased numbers of young women being convicted of violence towards girls or other people. These crimes are often committed in gangs.
So no, it’s not just men, but men do commit more crimes of violence and more war crimes.

There are other types of cruelty which are used by women.

Luckygirl3 asks Is it just men?

This is a question that has been in my mind for a while.

We know that women have the capacity to be cruel but would they go to these extremes?

It's always men who have gone to war and devised more and more horrific means to kill and maim in their fellow humans, but women have egged them on. Is it just our lack of physical strength that holds us back? Or our powerlessness in the face of men's violence?

the article detailing the atrocities suffered by Russian army conscripts backs up something I heard Frank Gardener say a week or so ago. He said that the British Army runs on its NCOs, its corporals and sergeants who have the trust of their soldiers, and don't demand anything of them that they are not prepared to do themselves, whereas the NCOs of the Russian army are loathed and feared, especially by conscripts.

"Plus ça change". If you wondered why the Germans turned their weapons policy on its head recently my guess is it's simply fear of the Russians.

The fear in Germany of Russian troops is left over from the war when Russia walked into Germany and agreement was made to give them East Germany. The stories coming out of Germany at that time were ... I actually don't know how to describe them.

We should have remembered the scorpion in the scorpion and the frog. People, parties - and nations - do not change their nature. We are seeing this around the world. I have to admit I find it very hard to absorb that this has happened during our lifetime.

I do keep up on it all, as I have a Ukranian friend and I hear from her. I just don't listen to the news any more than the headlines. It just feels as thought he world is mad - why would people be so cruel? Why does it never change? Is it just men?

The stealth use of drugs - amphetamines, steroids, psychedelics, heroin, cocaine - on the militaries of many conflicts is a little known, at least it was to me, factor in the dehumanisation of troops. This is NOT an excuse for appalling, inhuman behaviour, rather a possible added factor as to the why of humans turning into monsters.
It's beyond my understanding that someone has actually ordered this with their endgame being horror upon horror.

There was an interview with Maria Butina of the Russian Duma on HARDtalk. On iPlayer now.
She insists that the Nazis are responsible for the atrocities in Ukraine as Russian soldiers would never harm civilians.
This is the woman who made the law that has imprisoned 14000 Russians who were against the war.
She was a former journalist who spoke out for free speech!!
This is worth watching although HARDtalk is a hard watch. Very frustrating.

You are right Luckygirl that there is little we can do beyond contributing to charities for Ukraine and if we have available space, offering a home to some of the refugees. However I think we have a duty to keep ourselves informed about the war crimes that are being committed because the world (which is us) need to be aware as this horrible situation unfolds, so that when the inevitable trials and sanctions take place, we will know who is guilty and what they did.

It is all unreadable and I read as little of it as possible. All I can do is my small bit: donations - both financial and in goods, being on Homes for Ukraine list. What else can we do? I know it is grim and do not feel that reading any more of it will help anyone. There is no more I can do.