The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

It is not a human right to insist on being able to use a female loo when you are male, though. Nobody is objecting to transwomen using the loo anyway - just from using the ones designated as for women to use. It is not possible both to protect safe spaces for woman and to allow transwomen to use them. The two things are incompatible for the reasons in my earlier post.

If men are willing to alter their bodies (which most transwomen are not) then yes, they have shown commitment to their feelings, which is why I see them as separate from 'men in dresses', but they are still not women, any more than if I say I feel like a 20 year old, have surgery to lift my saggy bits, alter facial appearance and dress in my daughter's clothes will make it so.

At no time have I (or anyone else on here, as far as I remember)
suggested that such transwomen have no rights, or that they should suffer discrimination or prejudice, but that doesn't mean that women have to give them the single-sex rights that we have fought for just because they ask.

Whether someone 'feels like' something they are not is no basis for taking rights from others, and the rights to decide who watches your daughter undress, who puts his hands inside your body and who sleeps next to you in hospital are all pretty fundamental. Just because a man says he wants to do something because he 'feels like' a woman does not mean that he should be able to do it regardless of the objections of actual women. Women have rights too.

I see all of the above as being true whether or not feminism is brought into it. I see feminism as about supporting female people, and see the trend amongst 'trans allies' to bring in 'intersectional feminism' as a smokescreen. Any sort of philosophy that sanctions putting men before women is not feminism in my book, but in any case, the human rights arguments stand outside of that.

They may well feel like a woman but they are not and never can be. Sad but true.

Also I don't have an answer for presents as a woman and neither do the people who have harassed butch lesbians and masculine presenting women because they have got it very wrong

I just have the feeling that I am a woman

Trans people tell me they felt female from childhood so, well before womanhood

I don't know what else to do but empathise with how that must feel and accept that they are telling me the truth

If they are willing to alter their bodies with hormones (when my hormones are a bloody nightmare naturally) then that seems to be evidence their feeling is real.

If they are willing to alter themselves with surgery (when that would terrify me as it is incredibly risky and painful) that tells me their feelings are real.

When they are willing to sit and drink tea with me and eat cake and talk about all the things we have in common, that tells me their feelings are real

I don't know how to question that apart from saying, they feel like a woman and I feel like they are right

Everyone has the same human rights though.

So while we can protect safe spaces for women, trans people also have rights to be able to use spaces.

Being able to use the loo or try on a piece of clothing, both of which are necessary basic needs, has to be made achievable for everyone.

If that's not achievable for everyone then we are discriminating.

It's the same for disabled people, if they can't even have the basic human dignity of using the toilet, that's not acceptable.

Not everything in life is going to be available to every body... Yet when we are talking basic needs like food, shelter, employment, clothing and sanitary requirements

Surely that can easily resolvable and no one's beliefs have to be pushed aside to do so

Your post was so clear, concise and simple to understand, even for the most entrenched TRA (and their allies) Doodledog that I can't see any way that it couldn't be addressed in a simple, concise and easy to understand reply. It really is as easy, and straightforward, as you describe.

I do keep trying to find the feminist in there who really supports all women

It's this kind of cheap dig that weakens your arguments. The big difference of opinion is whether transwomen are women.

Those of us who think that they are transwomen are never going to agree that 'they have the same rights as any other woman', as their being women does not and can never apply.

You know this, so you know that your 'answer' to Mollygo wasn't really an answer - it was a perspective with which she was never going to agree. That doesn't mean that she is not a feminist - it means that she does not think that male people come under the umbrella of people who can expect to be supported by feminism.

Again, you know this, so going round in circles with 'tit for tat' comments is not productive.

To me, 'supporting all women' means supporting women who want to keep the rights that feminists have fought for, and not hand them to men just because they say they want them. I have asked what is the difference between a woman, a transwoman and a man in a dress (or 'presenting as a woman' in other ways) but have had no answer. I have asked what 'presenting as a woman' is, but have had no answer.

I have wondered whether people have thought they have answered but have couched a reply in such a way that I haven't realised that there had been an answer, but I don't think so.

Until I know what you (and those who share your opinion) understand as the differences it is impossible to be sure how you arrive at the conclusions you do. It is reasonably straightforward to me:
A woman is an adult human female.

A transwoman is someone who was born male but wants to be a woman so either surgically alters his body to approximate a female one, or asks to be accepted as a woman, usually by changing his name, and wearing stereotypical female clothing, hairstyles and conforming to stereotypical female gender norms, and does so round the clock.

A man in a dress is someone who does not conform to those stereotypes except when he wants to be assumed to be a transwoman, eg to gain access to a space that has been designated as for women or to compete against them in sport.

Only the first of these is a woman, but as long as the second is given free access to female spaces the third will also have access. Neither transwomen nor men in dresses should be able to compete against women in sport. They should not pass themselves off as women and intimately examine female patients or clients - the onus should not be on those patients/clients to investigate. To suggest that this infringes their rights is to say that men have a right to touch women's bodies whether the women have consented or not.

I would very much like to hear how you differentiate between the categories.

Other issues, such as those surrounding language and statistics are also important, but it makes sense to take one step at a time.

Anyone watching the SAS programme? Try picking out the transman.

You must be able to see I don't twist meanings and generally go with the more positive if there are multiple meanings available

I'm afraid that that's not what I've seen at all. In fact, the opposite. But it's the old adage of seeing one's self, as others see us.

Mollygo

Chewbacca

No I'm just naive enough to keep trying to get along

I think that ship's sailed.

Definitely.

Trisher, I didn’t need an answer. I know your responses so well I can write them myself.

Well I kindly gave you one.
I do keep trying to find the feminist in there who really supports all women

Multiple interpretations works better

I've said this before doodledog but describing my feminism and what matters to me under that umbrella carries no implied anything. Its just what matters to me, not anything against anyone else, not saying anyone else is or isn't an anything.

If you listen to me too, especially when I explain myself I won't be constantly stuck in a cycle of defending myself.

You must be able to see I don't twist meanings and generally go with the more positive if there are multiple meanings available

VioletSky

No I'm just naive enough to keep trying to get along

Well you could start by not speaking to the rest of us as though we are discriminatory, unfeminist, unkind and the sort of people who don't try to understand other people by listening to what they have to say.

It's not easy to 'get along' with someone who persistently does this, whilst painting herself as the personification of sweetness and light.

As I keep saying the impact of the work done by fair play for women and other groups is available for anyone to see. Successful and unsuccessful cases.

Chewbacca

^No I'm just naive enough to keep trying to get along^

I think that ship's sailed.

Definitely.

Trisher, I didn’t need an answer. I know your responses so well I can write them myself.

No I'm just naive enough to keep trying to get along

I think that ship's sailed.

Mollygo

Personal denigration is the name calling- mysoginistic, always putting men first etc.

By your words and actions shall we know you.

Cis-misogynistic,

transwomen are women, when you are implying that they are female-misogynistic

Trans rights override AHF rights -misogynistic.

Tell me trisher, after all this time, are you finally saying that you put AHF first instead of males, in whatever guise they choose to appear?

No-I thought not.

Are you finally agreeing that AHF have the right to safe spaces free from males, WITHOUT having to find a male in there and ask for him to be removed?

No-I thought not.

Are you finally admitting, that males, in whatever guise they appear, who attempt to compete in female competitions are cheating?

No-I thought not.

Are you finally agreeing that males, falsely representing themselves as females, when a female medic has been asked for are wrong to do so?

No-I thought not

Are you finally agreeing that, where no transgender unit exists, any rapists (who are unarguably males), in whatever guise they present, should be imprisoned in a unit matching their birth sex.

No-I thought not.

Are you finally agreeing to these points, without bringing in any sidetracks or imaginary set ups or sidetracks?

No, I thought not-unless you just avoid answering.

Or are you putting men first which is what you usually appear to do?

Yes, I expect so.

Mollygo this is as usual the perfect example of a woman who has been well schooled in patriarchal behaviour. Men have always done it, sadly now some women are taking it up. It involves pretending to ask a question thus implying that you are somehow listening then answering the question yourself. It's a method that has been used to silence women for years.

So here's my own statement take it or leave it.
Transwomen are women and they are to be found in all the places women are found. They have the same rights as any other woman.
No one has the right to harm or injure another person.
The law is there to protect people and is applied to transpeople just as it is to anyone else.
It is illegal to assault or rape anyone. It is illegal to display genitalia in public places.

Preventing transwomen accessing changing rooms or any other space generally open to women could not be done without causing harm to women, and in any case is not necessary. The myth of rape being a transwoman crime committed in public changing rooms is just that. Most rapes are committed by men known to the woman.

Transgender prisons exist. They were created because an attempt to house transwomen in female prisons after several transwomen had died in male prisons was unsuccessful. Nothing to do with the gender critical.

Anyone can refuse to be examined by anyone else. If you want a woman who was born a woman ask for a ciswoman.

No I'm just naive enough to keep trying to get along

VioletSky

doodledog

Look into intersectional Femisim and perhaps you will understand

But why ask me questions you already know the answers too?

Why didn't you accept the sanwer the first 100 times I answered?

Ally isn't some sort of special title by the way, I don't get a medal or claim any reward. It just is a word that describes standing with someone else

Do I not understand, or already know the answers?

If I wasn't 'kind', I might think that you just answer my posts for the sake of arguing?

doodledog

Look into intersectional Femisim and perhaps you will understand

But why ask me questions you already know the answers too?

Why didn't you accept the sanwer the first 100 times I answered?

Ally isn't some sort of special title by the way, I don't get a medal or claim any reward. It just is a word that describes standing with someone else

Personal denigration is the name calling- mysoginistic, always putting men first etc.

By your words and actions shall we know you.

Cis-misogynistic,

transwomen are women, when you are implying that they are female-misogynistic

Trans rights override AHF rights -misogynistic.

Tell me trisher, after all this time, are you finally saying that you put AHF first instead of males, in whatever guise they choose to appear?

No-I thought not.

Are you finally agreeing that AHF have the right to safe spaces free from males, WITHOUT having to find a male in there and ask for him to be removed?

No-I thought not.

Are you finally admitting, that males, in whatever guise they appear, who attempt to compete in female competitions are cheating?

No-I thought not.

Are you finally agreeing that males, falsely representing themselves as females, when a female medic has been asked for are wrong to do so?

No-I thought not

Are you finally agreeing that, where no transgender unit exists, any rapists (who are unarguably males), in whatever guise they present, should be imprisoned in a unit matching their birth sex.

No-I thought not.

Are you finally agreeing to these points, without bringing in any sidetracks or imaginary set ups or sidetracks?

No, I thought not-unless you just avoid answering.

Or are you putting men first which is what you usually appear to do?

Yes, I expect so.

So if I see someone being discriminated against I will offer my support in what ever way I can.

Sorry, I meant to quote the above when replying to VS in my previous post.

So, I have no doubt, do many people on here. We don't sing our ally status from the rooftops, though.

Do you ever offer upper support in any way you can to women who wish to exercise their right to undress away from a male gaze? Or to speak about a traumatic experience of rape or sexual assault to another woman? Or to spend the night in hospital able to relax without worrying about a man in the next bed?

trisher, since you asked, your personal comments to me have included doubting my professional competence, calling me a Nazi, equating my views to those of eugenicists, amongst others. As you know, the search function on here is rubbish, so it's not possible to quote directly. We both know you have said those things, though (and others remember them if you don't).

BTW I don't hold gender critical beliefs obviously but I respect the right to hold them. That doesn't mean GC people can discriminate with impunity as the equality act and further court rulings show.

Given that it is possible to share concerns and issues about other groups without actually discriminating as some already show on these threads despite their beliefs... I have no problem giving them my respect for what it's worth.

I don't put trans people above others

Being an ally is very simple. You can speak up against discrimination, bigotry and hatred if you want or you can simply stand next to someone so they know they aren't alone and so that those trying to harm them know they aren't alone.

Because otherwise marginalised groups would be easy targets.

So if I see someone being discriminated against I will offer my support in what ever way I can.

VioletSky

I'm an ally to lots of people as an intersectional femisist

Do you ask people if they need or want you to speak for them before declaring yourself an ally? Last time I looked, intersectional feminism wasn't about being a saviour to those who can speak for themselves. Nor was it about putting the views of transpeople above those of women.

Is your strange version of intersectional feminism one that allies itself to male transgender people but not gender critical women? How does that sit with any definition of feminism?

It is perfectly possible to believe in the right of transwomen to live in a way that makes them feel authentic without believing that their male sex gives them the right to colonise women's spaces and erode the rights of women to exist as a sex class of our own. I don't need to claim to be on the side of all the angels to do it.