The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

VioletSky

trisher one of my favourite shops that sells predominantly feminine clothes has a male employee. I've never even thought of it until now but definitely asked him to get me a size 10 in the past because the 12 was too big

Sadly it turned out that I did need a 12, there was just a difference between two 12s lol

But when I go somewhere like Next, there are men and women working in different sections and I would assume tidying any changing room and doing put backs...

I've walked into toilets with a man cleaning..

Just never really thought anything of it

Yes I did wonder about that. Our local park toilets have a male cleaner he does a brilliant job, would he have to stop cleaning the ladies? Most of the facilities I use have notices informing people that there are male and female cleaners employed there.

trisher one of my favourite shops that sells predominantly feminine clothes has a male employee. I've never even thought of it until now but definitely asked him to get me a size 10 in the past because the 12 was too big

Sadly it turned out that I did need a 12, there was just a difference between two 12s lol

But when I go somewhere like Next, there are men and women working in different sections and I would assume tidying any changing room and doing put backs...

I've walked into toilets with a man cleaning..

Just never really thought anything of it

Two terrible examples of what can and does happen when women's toilets are exclusively for women.

There was a very similar incident at Christmas, in a pub near me, Doodledog Because the pub was crowded, busy and noisy, no one noticed him go in and she wasn't discovered until another woman went into the toilets and found her.

Well if we made a big fuss about it Chewbacca in a dress shop for example, we might be offered a free garment.

As I posted earlier trisher what about women who only want to use female facilities and that has nothing to do with religious reasons?

varian

Why? Doodledog?

I thought the unisex loo arrangement at the clinic was excellent- each cubicle self contained. What is wrong with that?

I was talking about changing rooms, specifically ones with curtains instead of partitions when I said people would shop online.

Loos would depend, for me. I made the point about knees and bladders to show that the facilities can put people off going to particular premises, and I do think that unisex loos would be a dealbreaker for some.

I am not keen on places that have them along corridors away from the seating area, but at least people know that a man in there is up to no good (unless there is good reason to be there, which he could declare). If men could use them legitimately, however, there would be a risk to women and I would be put off. A friend of mine was sexually assaulted in a ladies' loo in a pub years ago. Someone spotted a man go in and went to get help, which arrived before he raped her, but not before he'd assaulted her quite badly. If the customer had seen a man go into a unisex loo the alarm wouldn't have been raised, and who knows what might have happened. The incident has maybe sensitised me more than most, but all the same, I know that it happens, and no amount of pretending otherwise will convince me.

If women can only use female facilities because of religious reasons then they would wait for the female only toilet^

A bit like male Charlie waiting for a cubicle in the changing rooms to become free of women?

If women can only use female facilities because of religious reasons then they would wait for the female only toilet. If there is a long queue you need more. Sign on door is changed. No bother

varian

I have long thought it was very unhygenic to have to open the door of a cubicle before you could wash your hands.

Why not have fully equipped unisex loos?

I prefer this idea too, I also hate communal changing areas.

I went into some at a pub that were like that and they also had an emergency button that would call a member of staff if needed... I thought that was amazing and very forward thinking if someone was unwell or didn't feel safe

Fully equipped unisex loos take more space and can't be easily accommodated in all, or even most, old buildings without a drastic reduction in the amount of provision. As for touching the door handle after washing your hands, I refer you to my earlier post. That applies whether the basin is in the loo or at a communal station outside.

Why? Doodledog?

I thought the unisex loo arrangement at the clinic was excellent- each cubicle self contained. What is wrong with that?

Have you seen how many women leave a toilet without washing their hands at all, and I understand men are even worse. So you may wash your hands before opening the cubicle, but you can't guarantee everyone will have. That's why I use a clean tissue to open any doors after I've washed my hands, and prefer those places where it's just a 'twisty corridor' type exit after the basins.

Yes, Rosie, probably most of us would just not go to shops with unisex changing cubicles. I do most of my shopping online anyway, and if I thought I would be trying on clothes with a curtain between me and a man (however he identifies) I honestly don’t think I’d bother.

In non-retail premises similar thinking would probably apply too. I know people who won’t go to certain places because the loos are upstairs and their knees complain, or because there is only one Ladies’ loo which is always in use, and their bladder doesn’t like it. I think unisex ones would similarly cause people to vote with their feet.

I have long thought it was very unhygenic to have to open the door of a cubicle before you could wash your hands.

Why not have fully equipped unisex loos?

trisher

Doodledog

But many other women might not - that’s the point.

In which case more female only facilities could be supplied. It's really a question of what is necessary. If women are happy with gender neutral facilitis they will use them, if more of them require all female facilities that will become evident.But I very much doubt if a lot of women would mind.

How will you know they are happy with them, will there be a questionnaire to fill in after each visit? People will use facilities they're not happy with, just because there's no other choice. If I desperately need the loo and there's only mixed sex ones then I'm going to have to use one aren't I? Doesn't mean I'm happy about it.
Without there having been any votes on these issues I fail to see how you can be sure not a lot women would mind.

The old toilets have been replaced with gender neutral ones. They may be fewer but they are nicer. have you ever stood in the queue at the theatre and wondered if there was any chance you'd get to the toilet before the 'end of the intermission' bell sounded? Fewer toilets would make that even more problematic.

Shops also have to contend with the risk attached to allowing male-bodied people to change next to women and girls. There is the risk of inappropriate behaviour, and the risk of malicious reports, too.

As we have seen with the lovely Charlie, people didn’t bother to check him out, or wait to see the outcome of the story before withdrawing their custom. It’s all too easy for people with axes to grind to persuade the gullible. It makes much more sense from the shop’s point of view to make it clear that incidents are most unlikely to happen, whether real or fictitious.

Why do you doubt if a lot of women would mind trisher?

You never give up, do you trisher.
Just because you like gender neutral toilets, you want to make that decision for all AHF and if they don’t like it, or feel safe, then as an intersectional feminist, you don’t have to care about the needs of AHF.
And you show quite clearly that you don’t.

Rosie51

That sort of provision takes a lot of space and is most suited to new builds. Imagine trying to adjust the meagre space given to toilets in old theatres, where even the traditional allocation for females is far too little.

A very old building I use has just had a make over. The old toilets have been replaced with gender neutral ones. They may be fewer but they are nicer.

Doodledog

But many other women might not - that’s the point.

In which case more female only facilities could be supplied. It's really a question of what is necessary. If women are happy with gender neutral facilitis they will use them, if more of them require all female facilities that will become evident.But I very much doubt if a lot of women would mind.

That sort of provision takes a lot of space and is most suited to new builds. Imagine trying to adjust the meagre space given to toilets in old theatres, where even the traditional allocation for females is far too little.

The clinic where my OH had his cataract op had unisex loos.

They were separated from the main corridor by a perspex screen.

There were, I think, 5 or 6 individual cubicles each suitable for disabled access and with wash basins.

Perhaps this type of provision should be universal/

Other women might be prepared to use gender neutral facilities.

And you would deny these other women the right to privacy.
I see where you’re coming from.???

Ha I always laugh when they say that.

I wouldn't be prepared to use gender neutral changing rooms and I'm sure I'm sure I'm not the only one trisher, and see no reason why a "single female cubicle would be for women who for religious reasons can't associate with men". Surely that would be discriminating against women who don't share their religious/cultural beliefs.

I'm sorry you were made to feel uncomfortable in the park trisher but what has that got to do with TW accessing women's safe spaces? What right does anyone have to say that "a single man shouldn't intimidate women on a ward?".

If there's the possibility that just one woman would feel uncomfortable with such an arrangement, it must never happen.