The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

Galaxy

Single sex spaces have been in place for a very long time. There is no evidence that they lead to a concept of keeping women separate from men as a mire general rule. Any move towards that is usually firmly knocked back, e.g female train carriages.

They have and they are a constant problem if I'm out with DS and the GC he has to ask me to take GD to the loo, or use the disabled loo, which isn't really a good solution.

Well someone had better tell M&S, Matalan and Primark because they've bowed to the TRAs pressure and made all their changing rooms uni sex. Another reason why online shopping is more and more popular and will add to the further decline of the high street.

Single sex spaces have been in place for a very long time. There is no evidence that they lead to a concept of keeping women separate from men as a mire general rule. Any move towards that is usually firmly knocked back, e.g female train carriages.

Ilovecheese

Trisher I also knew how you felt in the park situation and would have felt the same, but it is just part of multi cultural life.

Thanks, but I do worry. If I could feel so unwelcome with a background of independence and strong women, how on earth can a woman from such a culture break free? And will they see the provision of safe spaces as an indication that the culture they were raised in is correct and women need to be kept seperate from men? It's a question of protecting women from harm but doing so in a positive way that makes them able to assert their right to go anywhere in a civilised society with little or no risk of harm. And I'm not sure we are getting it right just now.

As you say Ilovecheese it is just part of multi cultural life and the point you've raised about retail space is also relevant. Some businesses will have to consider the loss of potential selling space by providing additional facilities.

If they choose not too, they may potentially lose out in terms of the numbers of customers accessing them, something no doubt that will be given careful consideration. Difficult for many who are part of a large consortium, even harder for small independent retailers.

Doodledog

I have also said (twice) that I recognise the park scenario (and have also been asked to move from a carriage in a train so that men could remain uncontaminated by my presence), but maybe you missed that, trisher?

Doodledog I think you actually considered my post to be about Orthodox Jews (It wasn't) I had been told that Orthodox Jews practised segregation by someone, and I had posted that I had never had a problem with them. In fact although they do segregate and have some specific religious requirements I have noticed when the families involved are out (and they are obvious from their style of dress) the men quite often push buggies and walk with the children.
I didn't comment about your post because I didn't see any point in drawing attention to a mistake.

If there is a only limited changing facilities Ilovecheese I'd just make sure each were secure and lockable

Most small shops I use where I live have that and there isn't a corridor to them, they are just located on the shop floor

I think I'd personally rather lose a little retail space to just one single secure cubicle (big enough for a mother or father with children to fit into with possibly a pushchair in tow) than make a space that's not available to all.

Elegran thanks for that link, there's a lot to plough through so I keep popping back for a bit more. It does give such clear explanations, and the lack of jargon is refreshing.

For those of us who do not subscribe to a culture and faith where women are segregated it can be an uncomfortable site, but we don't know when we see it, if those women being segregated are also unhappy, and IMO it is wrong to assume that they are and to use language which suggests this is the case.

Another thread would be a good idea trisher but I wonder if it would be rather short because as Galaxy has posted "You provide single sex spaces and mixed or 'family' spaces. It's not rocket science" and isn't a major issue unless of course it's made into one.

Children's changing cubicles have been around for years, a space where mothers and fathers can go to see to their children.

Good point Chewbacca and it's good to see that "TRA's have enraged so many women, and their collective voices are deafening loud" that more women in the public eye, and with a position of influence are finally taking our concerns seriously, and are being supported when they do.

Trisher I also knew how you felt in the park situation and would have felt the same, but it is just part of multi cultural life.

Excellent. It’s so much nicer if nobody makes things personal, or takes things personally, isn’t it?

Sigh

I suppose shops providing single and mixed sex changing rooms depends on how much room they have in the shop.
A franchise in a department store (if any still exist) might have plenty of room, but thinking about the small Monsoon shop that was in Manchester King Street (now gone) they would have had to lose a fair amount of stock, city centre rents are very expensive, so they would have to make judgements weighing up loss of stock/ how many fathers generally shop there with children etc. all part of running a business I suppose.

Well, if you want to engage with me I have set my boundaries and galaxy has helped me educate myself about what protected beliefs are (philosophical) so that's how I will engage in way that isn't offensive in discussion and will always avoid making things personal or guessing at others meaning doodledog

Again, VS, I have no idea what you’re on about. I am talking about this thread, not another one, which I’m told is against the rules?

And I didn’t call you daft. I said that your behaviour made you look a bit daft. So much is in the interpretation. You are ascribing things to me that I didn’t say, but I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt and not accusing you of twisting things.

I agree Galaxy but JP has flitted backwards and forwards for years on this issue, swaying in the wind without ever putting herself in the political firing line. She was oddly silent when Rosie Duffield & Joanna Cherry were treated so appallingly; she could have added her voice to theirs and brought about change. It's only now that the TRAs have enraged so many women, and their collective voices of outrage are deafening loud, that she's once again tiptoeing into the trans arena.

Yes I know chewbacca but JKR did that a little at the beginning. It is hard to be brave especially in the public eye.

doodledog how can you have a vague idea of what I am talking about but decide it doesn't matter because you aren't personally doing it?

Also you just told me I get annoyed at something I dont

Then called me daft

Yes it works both ways

No I'm not offended by others disagreeing with me

Also I have screenshots of the personal attacks that were deleted and then written off as "silencing women rather than what they actually were, in which you participated

And yes that was the entire thread I reported. What individual comments constituted personal attacks was up to gransnet, not me

1 comment, 1 thread, as I said despite assertions I am lying about it

I'd be far more impressed if she had the courage of her conviction instead of vacilating between what she thinks women want to hear and what she actually believes.

You provide single sex spaces and mixed sex or 'family'spaces. Its not rocket science.
Jess Phillips has always trod an interesting line I think, I feel she occassionally dips her feet in the water and then retracts. I think she might be interesting to.watch.

100% agree with everything you've said in your very fair and accurate posts @ 10.41 Doodledog.

trisher

I can't decide if this belongs on here or if I should start a seperate thread. If as is being suggested we make the changing rooms female only how on earth are we going to ensure men take equal responsibility for child care? Any place that provides services or goods for children needs to have a safe place for men to supervise children getting changed, or going to the loo otherwise it's going to mean men have a perfect excuse for leaving childcare to women.

Do start a new thread trisher.
I’m struggling to believe you care whether women are left with the childcare when, from everything you have said previously, you are more concerned about TW having access to female spaces and have just come up with another “What if”.

I have been involved in the labour party for a long time and the behaviour of some men within the party came as quite a shock to me, its been an interesting few years.

100% Agree with you there Galaxy and that's why I'm politically homeless right now. Having spent months listening to KS et al telling us that men have a cervix and that none of the bunch can adequately describe what a woman is; Jess Phillips has suddenly done a volte face and decided that "women can't have a penis and that sex and gender are 2 different things". I'd like to take some comfort from that that the Labour party is finally coming to its senses but I suspect it's less about actual belief in biological facts and more that she's noticed the ground swell of angry women leaving the party and is trying to do a damage limitation excercise.

I have also said (twice) that I recognise the park scenario (and have also been asked to move from a carriage in a train so that men could remain uncontaminated by my presence), but maybe you missed that, trisher?

trisher I'd say that deserves a thread...

Although to be fair to Monsoon they have clarified their changing rooms are open to everyone so I am happy to shop there again