The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

Nobody is compelling you to post, VS. Obviously you should post if you want to, but threatening to take your ball away if we don't play by your rules isn't really going to change anything.

Apart from anything else,

1. Nobody is slurring you, or anyone else.

2. I am not in on any 'inside jokes' either, and only have a vague idea of what you are talking about, so there is nothing personal going on there, either.

3. I see no harassment against you, but I can assure you that I am sick of being told what I think and mean, eg 'so what you're saying is [insert something I have never said or thought]'.

4. That is not a definition or an example of discrimination. You seem to be confused about the concept. FWIW, I don't think that the 'allies' on here are all the same. You all have your own styles and quirks, just like any other posters.

If we all have to carry on without you, so be it; but for the record nothing on here has been a personal attack, and the only thing that is remotely about you is that some people disagree with you on this issue. Posters have simply responded to your posts (and you get annoyed when they don't, and see that as a personal attack too!)

I've gone back through the thread, and yes, you have been called out on your reaction to reading a story 2nd/3rd hand and immediately virtue-signalling by saying that you were going to withdraw your custom, and when you said rather condescendingly that you wanted us to abide by part of the EA act that doesn't apply to the situation being discussed. When you appear to be issuing orders about something you clearly know little about, of course people are going to respond. Similarly you look a bit daft when you are so vehement in your support of something and then double down when it turns out not to have been true, but we all make fools of ourselves on social media from time to time - it goes with the territory! Who hasn't had to take their foot out of her mouth at some point?

I can't decide if this belongs on here or if I should start a seperate thread. If as is being suggested we make the changing rooms female only how on earth are we going to ensure men take equal responsibility for child care? Any place that provides services or goods for children needs to have a safe place for men to supervise children getting changed, or going to the loo otherwise it's going to mean men have a perfect excuse for leaving childcare to women.

It's really fascinating honestly

trisher

DiamondLily

trisher

Smileless2012

How do you know they were regulated to a certain area? You don't unless of course you asked them; did you? How do you know "women were not welcome there"? Was something said to you? Was their body language in any way aggressive? Were you made to feel uncomfortable?

Of course women can choose to have sex if they want too but these women were in prison. They hadn't been given conjugal rights, they had sex with a man who shouldn't have been incarcerated in a woman's prison.

The women were in the fenced off play area, not one of them or even one child left the area or went anywhere near the piece of grass surrounded on three sides by bushes where the men were. As I walked by on the path with my DGS a few of the men looked up at me. It wan't a welcoming look. I suppose perhaps some of you imagine that this sort of segregation doesn't happen here, but it does.

I do agree with you about this particular issue, Trisher. Anyone that lives near or in a "high diversity" area, or a low policed area, would know that this is very often the case.

It has been the case, and I've been the recipient of it myself, that the men sometimes make derogatory comments about any "westernised" women venturing near their group. Usually about them not being fully "covered" and the type of women that makes them. ?

Ok, I've always been with another woman, and it's been a case of "straight back 'atcha" with insults, but I can understand that a woman there with a grandchild could feel intimidated.

Added to that, there are often problems with other groups of men/youths etc.

What with all that, and the numerous bikes, scooters, aggressive joggers, drunks/druggies, dogs running riot, etc., some parks are no longer, sometimes, the pleasant and safe places they used to be. ?

Thanks DiamondLily I appreciate your response. I'm sure we would disagree about many matters but this is an area which really worries me. I don't think all Muslims are like this. I've taught in schools with largely Muslim children and always been treated with respect. It was the first time I had seen such a gathering and I found it disturbing.

Yes, we do disagree about everything else on here lol.

But, I did recognise the parks scenario.?

DiamondLily

trisher

Smileless2012

How do you know they were regulated to a certain area? You don't unless of course you asked them; did you? How do you know "women were not welcome there"? Was something said to you? Was their body language in any way aggressive? Were you made to feel uncomfortable?

Of course women can choose to have sex if they want too but these women were in prison. They hadn't been given conjugal rights, they had sex with a man who shouldn't have been incarcerated in a woman's prison.

The women were in the fenced off play area, not one of them or even one child left the area or went anywhere near the piece of grass surrounded on three sides by bushes where the men were. As I walked by on the path with my DGS a few of the men looked up at me. It wan't a welcoming look. I suppose perhaps some of you imagine that this sort of segregation doesn't happen here, but it does.

I do agree with you about this particular issue, Trisher. Anyone that lives near or in a "high diversity" area, or a low policed area, would know that this is very often the case.

It has been the case, and I've been the recipient of it myself, that the men sometimes make derogatory comments about any "westernised" women venturing near their group. Usually about them not being fully "covered" and the type of women that makes them. ?

Ok, I've always been with another woman, and it's been a case of "straight back 'atcha" with insults, but I can understand that a woman there with a grandchild could feel intimidated.

Added to that, there are often problems with other groups of men/youths etc.

What with all that, and the numerous bikes, scooters, aggressive joggers, drunks/druggies, dogs running riot, etc., some parks are no longer, sometimes, the pleasant and safe places they used to be. ?

Thanks DiamondLily I appreciate your response. I'm sure we would disagree about many matters but this is an area which really worries me. I don't think all Muslims are like this. I've taught in schools with largely Muslim children and always been treated with respect. It was the first time I had seen such a gathering and I found it disturbing.

Sorry chewbacca I asked a question and then disappeared. I have been involved in the labour party for a long time and the behaviour of some men within the party came as quite a shock to me, its been an interesting few years.

We can have a mutually respectful discussion or not, except I’ve never seen any respect for female points of view from the and allies.

I've taken quite a lot from these discussions personally because I do listen to opposing views but the way my views and other ally views are shut down is... Well its fascinating at least

That’s so funny.
Your views aren’t shut down at all. Unless you mean people don’t agree with you, in which case you’re just as guilty for not agreeing.

Fascinating is true.
I wait with bated breath for the next I know because I was (nearly) there or what if sidetrack to try and justify the unjustifiable.
Fascinating because I rarely have long to wait.

VioletSky

Well it rather depends if people are interested in having a discussion Diamondlily or want to end up with no one to discuss anything with of a different view

We can have a mutually respectful discussion or not

I've taken quite a lot from these discussions personally because I do listen to opposing views but the way my views and other ally views are shut down is... Well its fascinating at least

I haven't seen any disrespect, to be honest.

Differences of opinion, most certainly.

But, insults/abuse? No, I haven't.

But, it is a personal decision.?

Galaxy following on from your post 're Owen Jones, you might like to read this article by Suzanne Moore who worked with him at the Graunian and was effectively ousted by his bullying and misogyny. It's a no punches pulled, brave piece of journalism, by a woman who is no longer cowed by the tyranny of working for a TRA supporting news rag.

unherd.com/2022/04/how-the-guardian-enables-owen-jones/

Well it rather depends if people are interested in having a discussion Diamondlily or want to end up with no one to discuss anything with of a different view

We can have a mutually respectful discussion or not

I've taken quite a lot from these discussions personally because I do listen to opposing views but the way my views and other ally views are shut down is... Well its fascinating at least

Off you go then.

Replace the word trans allies with the word female or AHF and you get an accurate picture of what you are doing.

Natal women are subject to the harassment, intimidation and discrimination that you mention, from some TW and from TRA, which you as an intersectional feminist should be concerned about.

Though I don’t expect you will be able to understand that.

Your belief that transwomen are women is only possible because of the jiggling round of the word women to suit male purposes!

Actually the only true and unarguable description is that
Trans Women Are Transwomen.

VioletSky.... Whether anyone posts on a forum is their personal decision, providing they don't break the rules.

If a thread either doesn't interest you, or upsets you, it's best avoided really.

Any thread is a discussion - and not everyone will hold the same views.

Be a bit boring if they did. ?

My belief that trans women are women and trans men are men is also a protected belief under the equality act that meets the 5 criteria.

Which means while gender critical beliefs are protected from slurs (I won't give examples because they don't belong in my vocabulary), harassment, intimidation and discrimination....

I am also protected against slurs, harassment, intimidation and discrimination based on my beliefs.

Trans people are protected from slurs, harassment, intimidation and discrimination which means no one can misgender them with impunity as ruled in court and information readily available in any article containing the most recent court orders.

This is why if people aren't willing to conduct a discussion within the ruling:

1, Stop using slurs against trans allies beliefs, intelligence and character.

2, Stop making reference to inside jokes or information in an intimidating way

3, Don't harass with untruths about their behaviour or what they think or mean

4, Stop refering to trans allies as one mass with the idea that they exhibit all the same characteristics when we clearly do not and thus discriminating

Basically, don't create a hostile environment for trans people or their allies or I won't engage in the discussion and people can carry on without me

Chewbacca

Just read that Diamond and was a bit surprised that they're still using the original information about his age and it "being for his prom". In the comments section, it was a shame to see how many have already decided to take their custom away from Monsoon because of this incident; Charlie's fantasy has caused a great deal of damage all round.

Yes, to be honest, I wouldn't feel comfortable using a store that allowed men to wander in and try on clothes, in a communal area.

Some men are harmless, others not so.

But, I would not try to destroy Monsoon's trade. They employ mainly women, and they might actually need those jobs!

I wish they had found out the full facts, though, before capitulating quite so spectacularly at the altar of Charlie's weep-fest and TW.

They are looking incredibly stupid now, and I can't imagine that wrongly maligned and insulted shop assistant feels too good, either.?

But, then this whole Charlie fiasco seems to have been a bit of an attention seeking wind-up, by him, from the start.?

Let's hope he's pleased with himself Chewbacca for all the unpleasantness and damage he's caused by testing Monsoon and being a bit silly.

Just read that Diamond and was a bit surprised that they're still using the original information about his age and it "being for his prom". In the comments section, it was a shame to see how many have already decided to take their custom away from Monsoon because of this incident; Charlie's fantasy has caused a great deal of damage all round.

Jan Moir has written a column about Charlie and Monsoon, which sums it up pretty well:

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10720487/JAN-MOIR-Sorry-women-dont-want-changing-rooms-open-sacrosanct.html

Just saw a brilliant response on MN.
A woman was called a TERF as an insult,
at work and wanted to know how she should respond in future to this insult
Another person said, What's a TERF?

Some brightspark on there replied

TERF = Biological Realist.

trisher

Smileless2012

How do you know they were regulated to a certain area? You don't unless of course you asked them; did you? How do you know "women were not welcome there"? Was something said to you? Was their body language in any way aggressive? Were you made to feel uncomfortable?

Of course women can choose to have sex if they want too but these women were in prison. They hadn't been given conjugal rights, they had sex with a man who shouldn't have been incarcerated in a woman's prison.

The women were in the fenced off play area, not one of them or even one child left the area or went anywhere near the piece of grass surrounded on three sides by bushes where the men were. As I walked by on the path with my DGS a few of the men looked up at me. It wan't a welcoming look. I suppose perhaps some of you imagine that this sort of segregation doesn't happen here, but it does.

I do agree with you about this particular issue, Trisher. Anyone that lives near or in a "high diversity" area, or a low policed area, would know that this is very often the case.

It has been the case, and I've been the recipient of it myself, that the men sometimes make derogatory comments about any "westernised" women venturing near their group. Usually about them not being fully "covered" and the type of women that makes them. ?

Ok, I've always been with another woman, and it's been a case of "straight back 'atcha" with insults, but I can understand that a woman there with a grandchild could feel intimidated.

Added to that, there are often problems with other groups of men/youths etc.

What with all that, and the numerous bikes, scooters, aggressive joggers, drunks/druggies, dogs running riot, etc., some parks are no longer, sometimes, the pleasant and safe places they used to be. ?

And always followed up with a veiled warning that misgendering the little sweethearts could have dire consequences.

Another you have been warned message?

Sums it up perfectly Chewbacca.

I'm enjoying seeing all the excuses and whataboutery that keeps being churned out! No matter how terrible, deceitful or depraved the reported incidents are, a whole raft of excuses are offered, usually that it's women's fault that they've behaved like that because we're just so unkind and discompassionate! And always followed up with a veiled warning that misgendering the little sweethearts could have dire consequences. Thank God there are plenty of strong, intelligent, and feisty women who are bright enough to have looked a little deeper than the trans ideology booklet they picked up in the library.

Rosie51

Doodledog
When it comes to a clash between women’s rights and trans rights there will never be support for women, Rosie. Not from the so-called intersectional feminists on here, anyway. Knee-jerk support for the transpeople, regardless of the circumstances every time. Depressing, isn’t it?
It really is. Claim transgender or non-binary status and it's like that's a 'get out of jail free' pass to state any shite you please, and all the allies come running. If that's the IQ of your average ally 'intersectional or just deluded' ........

???
It may not be true about the average IQ . . .
We may not be ‘being kind’!

But if we have to take our view of them from the examples of Intersectional posters on here . . .

Doodledog

When it comes to a clash between women’s rights and trans rights there will never be support for women, Rosie. Not from the so-called intersectional feminists on here, anyway. Knee-jerk support for the transpeople, regardless of the circumstances every time. Depressing, isn’t it?

It really is. Claim transgender or non-binary status and it's like that's a 'get out of jail free' pass to state any shite you please, and all the allies come running. If that's the IQ of your average ally 'intersectional or just deluded' ........