The law as it stands on sex, Part 2

Trying to say not trying today!

Good question.
Perhaps it was to trying today that if you looked like a ‘woman’ it wasn’t dishonest to misrepresent yourself as female in any of the situation as you mentioned in your previous post.

I’d also like to know what was the point of the ‘spot the transwoman’ game?

The answers to these questions would be a good way to reach the end of another thread.
I’d also like to know, since VS post didn’t make sense to me

VS, You say:
Thats exactly what was said any time anyone asked for their rights... Others complained it violated theirs. It didn't and it doesn't
Can you please explain what you mean by that? I see it trotted out a lot, but nobody who repeats it has explained how it relates to the following situations:

Where there are people whose rights to undress in a single sex environment is violated by people asking for the right to use that environment as members of the opposite sex.

Where people want the right to compete fairly in a sport that they have trained for for years, but that right is violated by those who have stronger and differently proportioned bodies insisting on competing against them.

When people want the right to have agency over who touches them intimately but that right is violated by someone who does not declare their male sex to female patients/clients.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts, as I do see those things as violations of the rights of one group of people by another.

Also, what is it that you think that legislation has dealt with fairly, please?

Thank goodness that doubts are being voiced and questions are being asked: The Times today:

Vulnerable children are wrongly being given gender hormone treatment by the NHS, Sajid Javid believes, as he prepares to launch an urgent inquiry.

The health secretary thinks the system is “failing children” and is planning an overhaul of how health service staff deal with under-18s who question their gender identity.
Javid is understood to have likened political sensitivities over gender dysphoria to the fears of racism in Rotherham over grooming gangs.

That overly affirmative approach where people just accept what a child says, almost automatically, and then start talking about things like puberty blockers — that’s not in the interest of the child at all,” the ally said.

The review has already come across a number of adults that were given these life-changing drugs as children and are now saying, ‘Why did you do that? Because that wasn’t my problem. I was sexually abused. I was being bullied,’ ” a health source said. “We need to find out how many of these people there are.”

A senior government source said Javid believes “far too many public figures have been avoiding [gender issues] for too long” but argued: “There is a militant lobby that doesn’t want a debate.”
His allies say the “toxic” discussion on gender issues makes it harder to raise questions of child welfare.
Some around him say the question has been likened to concerns he raised while home secretary about the failure to tackle child exploitation by gangs of predominantly British-^Pakistani men in Rotherham. The senior government source said: “There is the same theme of not being afraid to tackle issues that others might prefer not to talk about.”

Full article here: go.skimresources.com/?id=470X1650972&isjs=1&jv=15.2.4-stackpath&sref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mumsnet.com%2Ftalk%2Fwomens_rights%2F4535829-javid-compares-fears-over-trans-issues-to-fears-of-racism-in-rotherham&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetimes.co.uk%2Farticle%2F0fea92e4-c265-11ec-8413-422ef6319ad0%3FshareToken%3Df3b10324b4fd398ce341189a72a727dc&xs=1&xtz=-60&xuuid=2906f93e71e9243c6160d4a11be411f4&xjsf=other_click__touchstart%20%5B%5D

I’ve been out this evening, so am just catching up with the thread, and have a few questions, if that’s ok.

trisher, you seem to find a lot of this funny, but I don’t see it like that at all.

What was the point of the ‘spot the transwoman’ game?

As Galaxy says, you are quick to label others, and I wouldn’t have thought being called an ‘ally’ would have struck you as offensive, but if you don’t like it I will try to remember not to use it in relation to you. Perhaps you would remember that many people on here (me included) find ‘cis’ offensive, and would return the favour?

I also see myself as someone who believes in human rights and equality. I posted the Amnesty list of human rights on this very thread, after VS insisted that the human rights of transpeople were being abused. I asked which ones were being denied, but there was no response from either of you.

Human rights are very important to me, but I really don’t think that being allowed to undress in front of the opposite sex is a human right, and can’t see anything on the Amnesty list that is being denied to transpeople. If you think otherwise, please state which ones they are, and I’ll reconsider.

VS, You say:
Thats exactly what was said any time anyone asked for their rights... Others complained it violated theirs. It didn't and it doesn't
Can you please explain what you mean by that? I see it trotted out a lot, but nobody who repeats it has explained how it relates to the following situations:
Where there are people whose rights to undress in a single sex environment is violated by people asking for the right to use that environment as members of the opposite sex.

Where people want the right to compete fairly in a sport that they have trained for for years, but that right is violated by those who have stronger and differently proportioned bodies insisting on competing against them.

When people want the right to have agency over who touches them intimately but that right is violated by someone who does not declare their male sex to female patients/clients.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts, as I do see those things as violations of the rights of one group of people by another.

Also, what is it that you think that legislation has dealt with fairly, please?

Galaxy

Well it is really clear that there are many many women who are uncomfortable with men using female services so that is fairly clear then.

Yes, but this is one occasion where a small number evidently counts.
I’d still like to know whether people think it’s OK to be dishonest, when misrepresenting yourself as female in situations where a male is unacceptable? If yes, what other dishonesty is acceptable?

Well it is really clear that there are many many women who are uncomfortable with men using female services so that is fairly clear then.

Smileless2012

Women who don't mind can't consent for those who do exactly Galaxy.

Neither can TW or posters on here.

I didn't say I or anyone else would consent for anyone. I said the law applies, if ciswomen wouldn't use a service then transwomen could be banned.
Mollygo thinks that's a loophole "to let them in" I think it means ciswomen who don't mind can admit transwomen. If anyone objects they would be excluded. But I don't see why it is particularly right to ban them if no one objects and everyone is comfortable with their presence. That's basically saying I have to say "No" to something even if it doesn't bother me. If I have no right to assume someone's consent they have no right to assume my objection.

Legislation has deslt with this, quite fairly

There are numerous example of clashes of rights around religion, sexuality etc legislation often has to deal with it. It really isnt that unusual.

Women who don't mind can't consent for those who do exactly Galaxy.

Thats exactly what was said any time anyone asked for their rights...

Others complained it violated theirs.

It didn't and it doesn't

I believe in human rights and equality too trisher but I don't believe that any one or any group should obtain theirs at the expense of someone else.

Women who dont mind cant consent for those who do.
You seem to label everyone on here gender critical, and I dont think that everyone would see themselves in that way. I am very clear that I am gender critical but not sure that other people would use that label.

Mollygo

They cannot enter or use female spaces or facilities even if they have a GRC
if their presence would prevent ciswomen using them
Why not just that sentence without the final part?
Always a loophole to let them in.

You were right with the blonde one

Isn't it funny I've been a mysoginist a supporter of males and now I'm a trans ally. I do wonder why you all feel the need to label people. I'm simply someone who believes in human rights and equality. I wonder if I was posting about the rights of black people would I be a black ally? or gay people a gay ally? (actually that's an FOD isn't it?)

Hardly a loophole, if females are happy to share a space with transwomen why on earth should they have to ban them because there is a law which says they can't be there? Or are you insisting that all women must behave as you do? Some women don't mind. They are allowed to think that I suppose.

It would be simpler, and IMO mire sensible than relying on a woman to decide against it, find out where to register an objection and how to do it, and get it passed. As with other things, laws should not come down to feelings or interpretation.

I’m not at all arguing for the number and type of female spaces to be increased - they should only be where women are vulnerable, eg in a state of undress, physically or mentally impaired, for religious reasons or whatever, and they should be clearly marked.

They cannot enter or use female spaces or facilities even if they have a GRC
if their presence would prevent ciswomen using them
Why not just that sentence without the final part?
Always a loophole to let them in.

And yet, we keep on being told not to judge on appearances.

Yes I agree Chewbacca "strange thing for an ally to do".

I'm guessing from the lack of response that the point (whatever it was) wasn't proved, then.

It's irrelevant though, and mentioning it at all suggests that looks are important - all the people in the photos are beautiful, highly made-up and well dressed. Are they all models? I assume from the fact that they are online that they aren't 'ordinary' people.

As for "let's play spot the transwoman" this isn't a game, for many it's a serious and worrying issue

Yes that was a strange thing for an allyto do wasn't it? Not very kind at all.

As for "let's play spot the transwoman" this isn't a game, for many it's a serious and worrying issue

I agree! I am not going to start second guessing.

I will say though that as mentioned earlier I know several transwomen through my work, volunteering and a friendly acquaintance. Some of them would not be easily identified/noticed in passing but yes, if spending time with them one would probably realise. I haven't really analysed why as it isn't important to me in interactions with each of these people, but I think it is about movement, (tends to be a bit exaggerated/"learned") rather more than build! For others the build makes it much more obvious.

Were we right with the blonde one, then?

As you say snowberry there are numerous movements, mannerisms and physical characteristics that when combined identify someone as a man.